Do not mess with the Badger!

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

Pictures from today's podium:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour083/bettiniphoto_0028631_1_full

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour083/bettiniphoto_0028628_1_full

The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
It's going to be hard to top.

Ben

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> Pictures from today's podium:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour083/bettiniphoto_0028631_1_full
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour083/bettiniphoto_0028628_1_full
>
> The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
> It's going to be hard to top.
>
> Ben


See how quickly Bernie reverts to that Cyrille Guimard aero tuck.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<bc390870-5614-4770-9408-0e0703cf5432@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> Pictures from today's podium:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08
> /tour083/bettiniphoto_0028631_1_full
>
> <http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/2008/tour08/tour083/bettiniphoto_0028628_1_full>
>
> The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
> It's going to be hard to top.
>
> Ben

I just know JT is going to approve of this.

"The Badger, he strikes!"

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[Bill C]

On Jul 7, 4:57*pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
> Pictures from today's podium:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20....
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20....
>
> The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
> It's going to be hard to top.
>
> Ben

The next one where he lands on top of him and starts raining down
punches and elbows would be pretty good too.
Only idiots screw with a badger.
Bill C

[RicodJour]

On Jul 7, 4:57*pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
> Pictures from today's podium:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20....
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20....
>
> The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
> It's going to be hard to top.

That is a great picture. Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
manhandling someone who needed it.

R

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jul 7, 1:57*pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
> Pictures from today's podium:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20....
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20....
>
> The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
> It's going to be hard to top.

THat guy he threw off has the strangest jersey. What team does he
ride for? Can he climb?

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Jul 7, 10:57 pm, "b...@mambo.ucolick.org" <b...@mambo.ucolick.org>
wrote:
> Pictures from today's podium:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20...
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2008/tour08/index.php?id=/photos/20...
>
> The second is the best photo of this year's Tour so far.
> It's going to be hard to top.
>
> Ben

There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related

-ilan

[nmp]

RicodJour wrote:


> That is a great picture. Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
> manhandling someone who needed it.

Oh, he was worked up. First pushed the protester off the stage, then when
the guy came back jumped on him like you see in the picture.

Look at this: <http://youtube.com/watch?v=VFRWe4YvLLE>

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Jul 9, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
> > That is a great picture. Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
> > manhandling someone who needed it.
>
> Oh, he was worked up. First pushed the protester off the stage, then when
> the guy came back jumped on him like you see in the picture.
>
> Look at this: <http://youtube.com/watch?v=VFRWe4YvLLE>

Amazingly, Hinault is criticized by the French Eurosport commentary:
"You just don't push around people like that." They are correct,
Hinault and ASO were very lucky that the guy wasn't hurt, because
Hinault's action was clearly assault and if the person had gotten
hurt, which is not unlikely falling from that height, they might have
had to pay a lot of damages. I wonder if management explained this to
him later.

-ilan

[Tom Kunich]

<ilanpsi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cecdad34-65bc-4854-a5ee-af9bb8312dae@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 9, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
>> RicodJour wrote:
>> > That is a great picture. Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
>> > manhandling someone who needed it.
>>
>> Oh, he was worked up. First pushed the protester off the stage, then when
>> the guy came back jumped on him like you see in the picture.
>>
>> Look at this: <http://youtube.com/watch?v=VFRWe4YvLLE>
>
> Amazingly, Hinault is criticized by the French Eurosport commentary:
> "You just don't push around people like that." They are correct,
> Hinault and ASO were very lucky that the guy wasn't hurt, because
> Hinault's action was clearly assault and if the person had gotten
> hurt, which is not unlikely falling from that height, they might have
> had to pay a lot of damages. I wonder if management explained this to
> him later.

I thought that one of the more interesting parts of French law was that
people were more able to protect their property from encroachment?

[RicodJour]

On Jul 9, 4:19*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Amazingly, Hinault is criticized by the French Eurosport commentary:
> "You just don't push around people like that." They are correct,
> Hinault and ASO were very lucky that the guy wasn't hurt, because
> Hinault's action was clearly assault and if the person had gotten
> hurt, which is not unlikely falling from that height, they might have
> had to pay a lot of damages. I wonder if management explained this to
> him later.

Classic example of media Monday morning quarterbacking - an entirely
innocent instance of someone shoving someone else off of a platform
from behind is made to look like a foolhardy act.

**** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.

R

[Michael Press]

In article
<cecdad34-65bc-4854-a5ee-af9bb8312dae@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com>,
ilanpsi@gmail.com wrote:

> On Jul 9, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> > RicodJour wrote:
> > > That is a great picture. Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
> > > manhandling someone who needed it.
> >
> > Oh, he was worked up. First pushed the protester off the stage, then when
> > the guy came back jumped on him like you see in the picture.
> >
> > Look at this: <http://youtube.com/watch?v=VFRWe4YvLLE>
>
> Amazingly, Hinault is criticized by the French Eurosport commentary:
> "You just don't push around people like that." They are correct,
> Hinault and ASO were very lucky that the guy wasn't hurt, because
> Hinault's action was clearly assault and if the person had gotten
> hurt, which is not unlikely falling from that height, they might have
> had to pay a lot of damages. I wonder if management explained this to
> him later.

"The guy came out of nowhere. I had no idea what mayhem
he was planning, and did not care to wait and find out.
The man was a danger, and I neutralized it."

I expect the paid guards will take more heat than Bernard.

--
Michael Press

[Bill C]

On Jul 9, 4:19*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 9, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
>
> > RicodJour wrote:
> > > That is a great picture. *Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
> > > manhandling someone who needed it.
>
> > Oh, he was worked up. First pushed the protester off the stage, then when
> > the guy came back jumped on him like you see in the picture.
>
> > Look at this: <http://youtube.com/watch?v=VFRWe4YvLLE>
>
> Amazingly, Hinault is criticized by the French Eurosport commentary:
> "You just don't push around people like that." They are correct,
> Hinault and ASO were very lucky that the guy wasn't hurt, because
> Hinault's action was clearly assault and if the person had gotten
> hurt, which is not unlikely falling from that height, they might have
> had to pay a lot of damages. I wonder if management explained this to
> him later.
>
> -ilan

Ilan I think he would have been a winner in the long run no matter
what happened. This just adds to the legend, the protester was wrong,
he took action. maybe not legal, but not lethal, and in character with
his legend. If they had tried to prosecute him, or he'd been sued the
backlash against both the protester, and the folks he was protesting
for would've been incredible I'd imagine.
They'd make a martyr of Hinault, and screw themselves in the process,
or has France totally lost it's appreciation for grand gestures?
Bill C

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Jul 9, 11:00 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
> <ilan...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:cecdad34-65bc-4854-a5ee-af9bb8312dae@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 9, 5:31 pm, nmp <addr...@is.invalid> wrote:
> >> RicodJour wrote:
> >> > That is a great picture. Bernie doesn't even look worked up - just
> >> > manhandling someone who needed it.
>
> >> Oh, he was worked up. First pushed the protester off the stage, then when
> >> the guy came back jumped on him like you see in the picture.
>
> >> Look at this: <http://youtube.com/watch?v=VFRWe4YvLLE>
>
> > Amazingly, Hinault is criticized by the French Eurosport commentary:
> > "You just don't push around people like that." They are correct,
> > Hinault and ASO were very lucky that the guy wasn't hurt, because
> > Hinault's action was clearly assault and if the person had gotten
> > hurt, which is not unlikely falling from that height, they might have
> > had to pay a lot of damages. I wonder if management explained this to
> > him later.
>
> I thought that one of the more interesting parts of French law was that
> people were more able to protect their property from encroachment?

I don't know where you got that idea, but it's absolutely false as
compared to the USA.

-ilan

[Tom Kunich]

<ilanpsi@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:67e75ef8-dc57-4fca-8820-ee20ad222692@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 9, 11:00 pm, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>> I thought that one of the more interesting parts of French law was that
>> people were more able to protect their property from encroachment?
>
> I don't know where you got that idea, but it's absolutely false as
> compared to the USA.

Hmm, guess I won't trust those sidewalk cafe lawyers anymore. Particularly
the one's carrying and dust pan and broom.

[Donald Munro]

RicodJour wrote:
> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.

Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.

[Bill C]

On Jul 10, 4:11*am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
> > **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> > apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
>
> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.

Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
"I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
didn't leave him to die"
Bill C

[Fred Fredburger]

Bill C wrote:
> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> RicodJour wrote:
>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
>
> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> didn't leave him to die"
> Bill C

Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilanpsi@gmail.com wrote:

>There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related

Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Jul 12, 5:32 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> >There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related
>
> Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.

Yes, you're being facetious, but you would be surprised how everyone
at the "other" rbr thinks he was perfectly justified. I'm wasting
keyboard strokes trying to beat some (figurative) sense into them:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1651971&posted=1#post1651971
I suppose I'm just an intellectual badger....

-ilan

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jul 12, 12:48*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 12, 5:32 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related
>
> > Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.
>
> Yes, you're being facetious, but you would be surprised how everyone
> at the "other" rbr thinks he was perfectly justified. I'm wasting
> keyboard strokes trying to beat some (figurative) sense into them: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1651971&posted=1#po...
> I suppose I'm just an intellectual badger....
>

Dumbass,

I think you are mistaken. Hinault's situation was
sort of similar to a club bouncer/security guard
who has to deter an unwanted audience member
from getting onto the stage during a performance,
and his use of minimal but non-zero force for a
push-off was similar. He didn't club the guy with a
stick. This isn't a case of overstepping and police
brutality.

The other thing about it is that Hinault made the guy
look a bit foolish rather than a martyr, which makes
it less likely to happen again. If they had had to
wrestle him to the podium floor and subdue him,
while he shouted "Don't tase me, bro!" it would have
hurt the protestor more, caused a greater distraction,
and given more opportunity for the security guards
to overstep. Like in the "Don't tase me" incident.

When you get civil disobedience training, you learn
how to occupy a space safely, how to go limp when the
police have to remove you, stuff like that that keeps
both protestors and police from getting hurt. This guy
didn't bother with such formalities.

Ben

[Howard Kveck]

In article <32cec9c9-260e-4624-8520-9c45003bbba7@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> On Jul 12, 12:48*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 12, 5:32 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related
> >
> > > Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.
> >
> > Yes, you're being facetious, but you would be surprised how everyone
> > at the "other" rbr thinks he was perfectly justified. I'm wasting
> > keyboard strokes trying to beat some (figurative) sense into them:
> > http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1651971&posted=1#po...
> > I suppose I'm just an intellectual badger....
> >
>
> Dumbass,
>
> I think you are mistaken. Hinault's situation was
> sort of similar to a club bouncer/security guard
> who has to deter an unwanted audience member
> from getting onto the stage during a performance,
> and his use of minimal but non-zero force for a
> push-off was similar. He didn't club the guy with a
> stick. This isn't a case of overstepping and police
> brutality.

Unlike the roadies from the Dead who made a point of seeing how far they could
chuck the person who tried to get onstage...

> The other thing about it is that Hinault made the guy
> look a bit foolish rather than a martyr, which makes
> it less likely to happen again. If they had had to
> wrestle him to the podium floor and subdue him,
> while he shouted "Don't tase me, bro!" it would have
> hurt the protestor more, caused a greater distraction,
> and given more opportunity for the security guards
> to overstep. Like in the "Don't tase me" incident.

Well, I don't think the cops overreactedin the "don't tase me, bro" incident. That
guy was being pretty unreasonable and wouldn't let up.

> When you get civil disobedience training, you learn
> how to occupy a space safely, how to go limp when the
> police have to remove you, stuff like that that keeps
> both protestors and police from getting hurt. This guy
> didn't bother with such formalities.

I also seriously doubt it ever crossed his mind that he'd get hit from behind.
After all, the security is in front of the posium and there's no one on it except
some scrawny rider, two girls and some old men. Nobody expects the Spanish Inqui...
er, the Badger!

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 13:26:44 -0700 (PDT), "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> Hinault's situation was
>sort of similar to a club bouncer/security guard
>who has to deter an unwanted audience member
>from getting onto the stage during a performance,
>and his use of minimal but non-zero force for a
>push-off was similar. He didn't club the guy with a
>stick. This isn't a case of overstepping and police
>brutality.
>
>The other thing about it is that Hinault made the guy
>look a bit foolish rather than a martyr, which makes
>it less likely to happen again. If they had had to
>wrestle him to the podium floor and subdue him,
>while he shouted "Don't tase me, bro!" it would have
>hurt the protestor more, caused a greater distraction,
>and given more opportunity for the security guards
>to overstep. Like in the "Don't tase me" incident.

Exactly. I thought Hinault played it very well - very crisply and
efficiently.

[Carl Sundquist]

<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
news:32cec9c9-260e-4624-8520-9c45003bbba7@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 12, 12:48 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 12, 5:32 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related
>
> > Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.
>
> Yes, you're being facetious, but you would be surprised how everyone
> at the "other" rbr thinks he was perfectly justified. I'm wasting
> keyboard strokes trying to beat some (figurative) sense into them:
> http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1651971&posted=1#po...
> I suppose I'm just an intellectual badger....
>

Dumbass,

I think you are mistaken. Hinault's situation was
sort of similar to a club bouncer/security guard
who has to deter an unwanted audience member
from getting onto the stage during a performance,
and his use of minimal but non-zero force for a
push-off was similar. He didn't club the guy with a
stick. This isn't a case of overstepping and police
brutality.

The other thing about it is that Hinault made the guy
look a bit foolish rather than a martyr, which makes
it less likely to happen again. If they had had to
wrestle him to the podium floor and subdue him,
while he shouted "Don't tase me, bro!" it would have
hurt the protestor more, caused a greater distraction,
and given more opportunity for the security guards
to overstep. Like in the "Don't tase me" incident.

When you get civil disobedience training, you learn
how to occupy a space safely, how to go limp when the
police have to remove you, stuff like that that keeps
both protestors and police from getting hurt. This guy
didn't bother with such formalities.
----------------

The guy should have puffed out his chest like a Austinite trying to leave a
bar with a drink and said, "Do you know who I am?"

[Michael Press]

In article
<32cec9c9-260e-4624-8520-9c45003bbba7@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
"bjw@mambo.ucolick.org" <bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

> On Jul 12, 12:48*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Jul 12, 5:32 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related
> >
> > > Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.
> >
> > Yes, you're being facetious, but you would be surprised how everyone
> > at the "other" rbr thinks he was perfectly justified. I'm wasting
> > keyboard strokes trying to beat some (figurative) sense into them: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1651971&posted=1#po...
> > I suppose I'm just an intellectual badger....
> >
>
> Dumbass,
>
> I think you are mistaken. Hinault's situation was
> sort of similar to a club bouncer/security guard
> who has to deter an unwanted audience member
> from getting onto the stage during a performance,
> and his use of minimal but non-zero force for a
> push-off was similar. He didn't club the guy with a
> stick. This isn't a case of overstepping and police
> brutality.
>
> The other thing about it is that Hinault made the guy
> look a bit foolish rather than a martyr, which makes
> it less likely to happen again. If they had had to
> wrestle him to the podium floor and subdue him,
> while he shouted "Don't tase me, bro!" it would have
> hurt the protestor more, caused a greater distraction,
> and given more opportunity for the security guards
> to overstep. Like in the "Don't tase me" incident.
>
> When you get civil disobedience training, you learn
> how to occupy a space safely, how to go limp when the
> police have to remove you, stuff like that that keeps
> both protestors and police from getting hurt. This guy
> didn't bother with such formalities.

And once again. When somebody comes out of nowhere
how good are any of us at assessing the danger? If
one is to take action it must be immediate. Not
twenty-four hours later when all the evidence is in.

--
Michael Press

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Jul 13, 1:54 am, "Carl Sundquist" <carl...@cox.net> wrote:
> <b...@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote in message
>
> news:32cec9c9-260e-4624-8520-9c45003bbba7@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 12, 12:48 pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jul 12, 5:32 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <usenetrem...@jt10000.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 04:37:28 -0700 (PDT), ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >There's a more complete video taken by an amateur:
> > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSozKU1MEl8&feature=related
>
> > > Hinault is such a badass, and efficient too.
>
> > Yes, you're being facetious, but you would be surprised how everyone
> > at the "other" rbr thinks he was perfectly justified. I'm wasting
> > keyboard strokes trying to beat some (figurative) sense into them:
> >http://forums.roadbikereview.com/showthread.php?p=1651971&posted=1#po...
> > I suppose I'm just an intellectual badger....
>
> Dumbass,
>
> I think you are mistaken. Hinault's situation was
> sort of similar to a club bouncer/security guard
> who has to deter an unwanted audience member
> from getting onto the stage during a performance,
> and his use of minimal but non-zero force for a
> push-off was similar. He didn't club the guy with a
> stick. This isn't a case of overstepping and police
> brutality.
>
> The other thing about it is that Hinault made the guy
> look a bit foolish rather than a martyr, which makes
> it less likely to happen again. If they had had to
> wrestle him to the podium floor and subdue him,
> while he shouted "Don't tase me, bro!" it would have
> hurt the protestor more, caused a greater distraction,
> and given more opportunity for the security guards
> to overstep. Like in the "Don't tase me" incident.
>
> When you get civil disobedience training, you learn
> how to occupy a space safely, how to go limp when the
> police have to remove you, stuff like that that keeps
> both protestors and police from getting hurt. This guy
> didn't bother with such formalities.
> ----------------
>
> The guy should have puffed out his chest like a Austinite trying to leave a
> bar with a drink and said, "Do you know who I am?"

You would be correct if Hinault had pushed him onto the ground as he
did the second time. However, he pushed him off a fairly tall ledge
with steps and other irregularities which could have caused the person
a very severe injury. If he fell on his head, then his height + 3-4ft
drop would mean almost a 10ft drop which should be enough to cause
some damage. Pushing him from behind also meant that the person was
not prepared for the impact so everyone was lucky that he reacted
quickly by landing on his feet.

It's true that the protester was stupid and annoying but Hinault was
representing the Tour de France organization, so should have known
better than to take matters into his own hands in this way.

-ilan

[Bill C]

On Jul 13, 2:25*pm, Fred Fredburger
<Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> Bill C wrote:
> > On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> RicodJour wrote:
> >>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> >>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> >> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
>
> > Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> > "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> > didn't leave him to die"
> > *Bill C
>
> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.

Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
announced, despite his brutal behavior.
Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850610@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 13, 2:25*pm, Fred Fredburger
> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> > Bill C wrote:
> > > On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> RicodJour wrote:
> > >>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> > >>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> > >> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
> >
> > > Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> > > "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> > > didn't leave him to die"
> > > *Bill C
> >
> > Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
>
> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> announced, despite his brutal behavior.

Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969. Cheney was
involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting it to the
authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize for getting in
Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that Cheney is involved in
killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.

"Brutal behavior," huh...

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Fred Fredburger]

Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850610@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger
>> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
>>> Bill C wrote:
>>>> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> RicodJour wrote:
>>>>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
>>>>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
>>>>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
>>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
>>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
>>>> didn't leave him to die"
>>>> Bill C
>>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
>> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
>> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
>> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
>> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
>
> Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969. Cheney was
> involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting it to the
> authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize for getting in
> Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that Cheney is involved in
> killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
>
> "Brutal behavior," huh...
>

I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.

Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
but so what?

[Bill C]

On Jul 13, 9:41*pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups..com>,
> *Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 13, 2:25*pm, Fred Fredburger
> > <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> > > Bill C wrote:
> > > > On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> RicodJour wrote:
> > > >>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> > > >>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> > > >> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
>
> > > > Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> > > > "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> > > > didn't leave him to die"
> > > > *Bill C
>
> > > Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
>
> > Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> > go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> > still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> > announced, despite his brutal behavior.
>
> * *Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969.. Cheney was
> involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting it to the
> authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize for getting in
> Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that Cheney is involved in
> killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
>
> * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
>
Supporting the IRA's "war", Long history of drunken public incidents,
his treatment and behavior towards women, etc...
We wont go into his Politics. I agree with Ben that if you are of his
persuasion ,high tax, big government, Nanny State, ideology he's a
hero. He's been incredibly effective.. None of that makes him a better
human being, but hey Bush is hammered still getting hammered as a
"former Alcoholic", goes well with this piece:

http://tinyurl.com/6q2ymp


> --
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full
> * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys
> * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article <ffidnZW9itYCW-fVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@comcast.com>,
Fred Fredburger <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
> > In article
> > <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850610@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger
> >> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> >>> Bill C wrote:
> >>>> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> RicodJour wrote:
> >>>>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> >>>>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> >>>>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
> >>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> >>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> >>>> didn't leave him to die"
> >>>> Bill C
> >>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
> >> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> >> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> >> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> >> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
> >
> > Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969.
> > Cheney was involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting
> > it to the authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize
> > for getting in Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that
> > Cheney is involved in killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
> >
> > "Brutal behavior," huh...
> >
>
> I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.
>
> Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
> syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
> but so what?

I can't say that I'm really defending Kennedy. I happen to think Cheney's
"hunting" record is far worse than is commonly thought.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jul 13, 8:21*pm, Fred Fredburger
<FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> Howard Kveck wrote:
> > In article <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > *Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger
> >> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> >>> Bill C wrote:
> >>>> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> RicodJour wrote:
> >>>>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> >>>>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> >>>>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
> >>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> >>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> >>>> didn't leave him to die"
> >>>> *Bill C
> >>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
> >> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> >> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> >> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> >> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
>
> > * *Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969. Cheney was
> > involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting it to the
> > authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize for getting in
> > Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that Cheney is involved in
> > killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
>
> > * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
>
> I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.
>
> Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
> syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
> but so what?



Dumbass -


Cheney is worse.

He was a major reason for this administration being the worst in the
last 80 years. No drunk driver (Kennedy or any other) ever did so much
damage to our country.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:21:56 -0700, Fred Fredburger
<FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:

>I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.

Doesn't sound like he was defending Kennedy, just putting things into
perspective.

>Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
>syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
>but so what?

OK

[Bill C]

On Jul 14, 2:06*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <ffidnZW9itYCW-fVnZ2dnUVZ_snin...@comcast.com>,
> *Fred Fredburger <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Howard Kveck wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > > *Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > >> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger
> > >> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> > >>> Bill C wrote:
> > >>>> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> RicodJour wrote:
> > >>>>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> > >>>>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> > >>>>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
> > >>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> > >>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> > >>>> didn't leave him to die"
> > >>>> *Bill C
> > >>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
> > >> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> > >> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> > >> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> > >> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
>
> > > * *Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969.
> > > Cheney was involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting
> > > it to the authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize
> > > for getting in Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that
> > > Cheney is involved in killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
>
> > > * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
>
> > I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into..
>
> > Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
> > syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
> > but so what?
>
> * *I can't say that I'm really defending Kennedy. I happen to think Cheney's
> "hunting" record is far worse than is commonly thought.
>
> --
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full
> * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys
> * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Howard we know of that incident, which is inexcuseable at best, and
the man is a scumbag, but what's the rest of his "hunting" record?
I know what Ted Kennedy's record is.
Fred's got it right. Neither of them reported it properly the
evidence is with Teddy waiting to sober up first, maybe the same with
Dicky Poo, but Kennedy left her there to die, Cheney didn't.
That's pretty simple.
You can bring anything else in you want, and spin it any way you
want, what happened, happened.
Again Fred's got it right.
I was amused by the stickers, especially in their context. Kinda like
God showing up and being a bisexual black woman at a Westboro Baptist
meeting.
Bill C

[Bob Schwartz]

Howard Kveck wrote:
> I can't say that I'm really defending Kennedy. I happen to think Cheney's
> "hunting" record is far worse than is commonly thought.

Bill,

Can you do me a favor and tell me where in the above
quote Howard defends Kennedy?

If you are going to have hot buttons like that, could
you be more entertaining about it? Lafferty is a good
role model in that respect.

Thanks,

Bob Schwartz

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jul 14, 12:20*am, Kurgan Gringioni <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jul 13, 8:21*pm, Fred Fredburger
> <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> > Howard Kveck wrote:
> > > In article <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > > *Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > >> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger
> > >> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
> > >>> Bill C wrote:
> > >>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> > >>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> > >>>> didn't leave him to die"
> > >>>> *Bill C
> > >>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
> > >> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> > >> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> > >> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> > >> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
>
> > > * *Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969. Cheney was
> > > involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting it to the
> > > authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize for getting in
> > > Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that Cheney is involved in
> > > killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
>
> > > * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
>
> > I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into..
>
> > Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
> > syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
> > but so what?
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Cheney is worse.
>
> He was a major reason for this administration being the worst in the
> last 80 years. No drunk driver (Kennedy or any other) ever did so much
> damage to our country.

Look at it this way:

Ted Kennedy started out in politics, made a huge
screwup and got a girl killed. Eventually he realized
that due to his past, he would have to rule out any
ambitions for higher office. He gradually became an
effective legislator and spent the next 25-30 years in
public service, and even finally quit drinking.

**** Cheney started out in politics as an effective
staffer, congressman and cabinet member. Eventually
he became Vice President, but ruled out any ambitions
for higher office. He then made a huge screwup,
got thousands of people killed, tortured hundreds
more, and probably drove quite a few veterans
to start drinking.

So it pretty much depends on whether you're one
of those people who likes to hear the bad news
before the good news, or the other way around.

Ben

[Fred Fredburger]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> On Jul 13, 8:21 pm, Fred Fredburger
> <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>> Howard Kveck wrote:
>>> In article <d03bf72a-57b7-4ae9-b302-c4b9ac850...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger
>>>> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos.Huh> wrote:
>>>>> Bill C wrote:
>>>>>> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> RicodJour wrote:
>>>>>>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
>>>>>>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
>>>>>>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
>>>>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
>>>>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
>>>>>> didn't leave him to die"
>>>>>> Bill C
>>>>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
>>>> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
>>>> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
>>>> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
>>>> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
>>> Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969. Cheney was
>>> involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not reporting it to the
>>> authorities till the next day (and getting said old man to apologize for getting in
>>> Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118 other Americans that Cheney is involved in
>>> killing, as well as the untold numbers of Iraqis.
>>> "Brutal behavior," huh...
>> I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.
>>
>> Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
>> syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
>> but so what?
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
>
> Cheney is worse.
>
> He was a major reason for this administration being the worst in the
> last 80 years. No drunk driver (Kennedy or any other) ever did so much
> damage to our country.

That's not the point I was making, but I'm pretty sure you know that.

Earlier in this thread Bill posted some really cool bumper sticker
material that is typical of what the right wing has done very
successfully for the last 20 (?) years. I quote:

> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> didn't leave him to die"

This material is very persuasive to a certain 3rd grade mindset. But
it's a stupid, irrelevant comparison. Nothing Kennedy did justifies
anything Cheney has done. The horror of the Bush administration doesn't
make Mary Jo Kopechne's death acceptable. They have nothing to do with
each other.

I'm sick of it. It minimizes all that's wrong with the Bush
Administration by reducing it to that one hunting incident, then excuses
it by comparing it to the 40 year old Kennedy thing. It's delusional
crap spit forth for the consumption of idiots in denial who refuse to
take responsibility for their own decisions.

I'm sure it's a good way to sell lots of bumper stickers, though.

[Fred Fredburger]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:21:56 -0700, Fred Fredburger
> <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>> I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.
>
> Doesn't sound like he was defending Kennedy, just putting things into
> perspective.

Everything the Bush Administration has ever done wrong is justified
because they've always been able to find someone else's sins to talk
about. Misdirection, name-calling, false comparisons but never, ever,
ever an admission of error.

Arguing with them about who's sins were worse is a sucker's game. It
wont get you anywhere. They _like_ that argument.

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:42:51 -0700 (PDT), "bjw@mambo.ucolick.org"
<bjw@mambo.ucolick.org> wrote:

>He then made a huge screwup,
>got thousands of people killed,

Yes.

But it's tens of thouands, and more probably hundreds of thousands, if
we include non-American civilians.

[Ted van de Weteringe]

Bill C schreef:
> I was amused by the stickers, especially in their context. Kinda like
> God showing up and being a bisexual black woman at a Westboro Baptist
> meeting.

Was she in line for the free assault rifle?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/14/baptist_church_giveaway/

[Howard Kveck]

In article <521ff28e-98b6-472f-8780-e4b2eaaeb474@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 14, 2:06*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> > In article <ffidnZW9itYCW-fVnZ2dnUVZ_snin...@comcast.com>,
> > *Fred Fredburger <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:

> > > Howard Kveck wrote:
> > > > *Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > >> On Jul 13, 2:25 pm, Fred Fredburger wrote:
> > > >>> Bill C wrote:
> > > >>>> On Jul 10, 4:11 am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>>> RicodJour wrote:
> > > >>>>>> **** Cheney would have shot him in the face and the guy would have
> > > >>>>>> apologized afterwards for getting in the way of the lead shot.
> > > >>>>> Cheney would have aimed at the protestor and hit the podium girl.
> > > >>>> Saw a couple of good bumper stickers the other day:
> > > >>>> "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
> > > >>>> didn't leave him to die"
> > > >>>> *Bill C
> > > >>> Damn, some people set their standards for behavior awfully low.
> > > >> Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
> > > >> go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
> > > >> still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
> > > >> announced, despite his brutal behavior.
> >
> > > > * *Hmm, Kennedy was involved in the death of Mary Jo Kopechne in 1969.
> > > > Cheney was involved in shooting one of his friends in the face, not
> > > > reporting it to the authorities till the next day (and getting said old
> > > > man to apologize for getting in Cheney's line of shot). How about the 4118
> > > > other Americans that Cheney is involved in killing, as well as the untold
> > > > numbers of Iraqis.
> >
> > > > * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
> >
> > > I'll tell you Howard, defending Ted Kennedy is bad business to get into.
> >
> > > Arguing whether Kennedy or Cheney is worse is like discussing which
> > > syphilitic, leprous whore is less repulsive. You might win the argument,
> > > but so what?
> >
> > * *I can't say that I'm really defending Kennedy. I happen to think
> > Cheney's "hunting" record is far worse than is commonly thought.

> Howard we know of that incident, which is inexcuseable at best, and
> the man is a scumbag, but what's the rest of his "hunting" record?

It's right there, Bill: "4118 Americans [] and untold numbers of Iraqis" - and
that's for starters.

> I know what Ted Kennedy's record is.

Yeah, he ****ed up bigtime and caused the death of someone *39* years ago. I still
wonder about his "brutal behavior" - what constitutes that? I look at the level of
the two of them (Kennedy and Cheney) and their respective ****ups and think that
Cheney's is far more egregious. He was a prime mover behind getting us into a war
that we didn't need and is proud of it.

> Fred's got it right. Neither of them reported it properly the
> evidence is with Teddy waiting to sober up first, maybe the same with
> Dicky Poo, but Kennedy left her there to die, Cheney didn't.
> That's pretty simple.
> You can bring anything else in you want, and spin it any way you
> want, what happened, happened.

I'm not spinning Kennedy's record - on the count of Mary Jo Lopechne, it's
horrible. But Ben was correct to point out some other aspects of the records of
Cheney and Kennedy.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Bill C]

On Jul 14, 9:13*am, Ted van de Weteringe
<myfulln...@xs4all.nl.invalid> wrote:
> Bill C schreef:
>
> > I was amused by the stickers, especially in their context. Kinda like
> > God showing up and being a bisexual black woman at a Westboro Baptist
> > meeting.
>
> Was she in line for the free assault rifle?http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/14/baptist_church_giveaway/

Nah, she's already got the "Thunderbolt" custom model.
Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article <d6f6dc9f-9e7d-455a-bac1-3f00c5cb8940@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 13, 9:41*pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:

> > * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
> >
> Supporting the IRA's "war", Long history of drunken public incidents,
> his treatment and behavior towards women, etc...

If you're going to go in to things far beyond the core issue here (MJ Kopechne vs.
Harry Whittington), then you have no reason to complain that I point out things
beyond that regarding Cheney. Right?

> We wont go into his Politics. I agree with Ben that if you are of his
> persuasion ,high tax, big government, Nanny State, ideology he's a
> hero.

Oh yeah, that describes all of us on "the Left" to a 'T'. heh.

> He's been incredibly effective.. None of that makes him a better
> human being, but hey Bush is hammered still getting hammered as a
> "former Alcoholic", goes well with this piece:

We weren't talking about Bush. On the other hand, you like to claim that taking
responsibility for your own actions are a great thing, but Bush certainly has fallen
down on that job, wouldn't you say?

> http://tinyurl.com/6q2ymp

http://susiemadrak.com/2008/07/11/13/46/time-to-indict-the-war-profiteers/

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Donald Munro]

Bill C schreef:
>> > I was amused by the stickers, especially in their context. Kinda like
>> > God showing up and being a bisexual black woman at a Westboro Baptist
>> > meeting.

Ted van de Weteringe wrote:
>> Was she in line for the free assault
>> rifle?http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/14/baptist_church_giveaway/

Bill C wrote:
> Nah, she's already got the "Thunderbolt" custom model.

I prefer the Uzi-in-a-purse.

[Bill C]

On Jul 14, 9:45*am, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> Howard Kveck wrote:
> > * *I can't say that I'm really defending Kennedy. I happen to think Cheney's
> > "hunting" record is far worse than is commonly thought.
>
> Bill,
>
> Can you do me a favor and tell me where in the above
> quote Howard defends Kennedy?
>
> If you are going to have hot buttons like that, could
> you be more entertaining about it? Lafferty is a good
> role model in that respect.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob Schwartz

Didn't say he was, I was responding to this in particular from Howard:

"Brutal behavior," huh...


--
tanx,
Howard
Which was in reference to Teddy, I thought. If I'm mistaken I
apopologize. I would even agree with Kurgan that Cheney has been worse
overall, but Fred's still right. With all the **** that family has
done, and been involved in it's amazing to see them damn near
sanctified, which they are IMO.
Bill C
Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article <0b4f7134-9ffc-4f44-8420-519b34677247@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 14, 9:45*am, Bob Schwartz <bob.schwa...@REMOVEsbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Howard Kveck wrote:
> > > * *I can't say that I'm really defending Kennedy. I happen to think
> > > Cheney's "hunting" record is far worse than is commonly thought.
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Can you do me a favor and tell me where in the above
> > quote Howard defends Kennedy?
> >
> > If you are going to have hot buttons like that, could
> > you be more entertaining about it? Lafferty is a good
> > role model in that respect.

> Didn't say he was, I was responding to this in particular from Howard:
>
> "Brutal behavior," huh...

I was wondering what you considered "brutal behavior," that's all. At least as far
as how it would compare to Fourth Branch.

> Which was in reference to Teddy, I thought. If I'm mistaken I
> apopologize. I would even agree with Kurgan that Cheney has been worse
> overall, but Fred's still right. With all the **** that family has
> done, and been involved in it's amazing to see them damn near
> sanctified, which they are IMO.

Well, you may be forgetting a couple of things about the Kennedys, Bill: two of
them were assassinated. Also, in spite of being the least effective brother and
having the Mary Jo Kopechne death on his conscience, Ted Kennedy has a fairly good
legislative record. You may not like some of it (or all of it) but many people do.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Tom Kunich]

"Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
news:XbCdnbe7P7R-
>
> This material is very persuasive to a certain 3rd grade mindset. But it's
> a stupid, irrelevant comparison. Nothing Kennedy did justifies anything
> Cheney has done. The horror of the Bush administration doesn't make Mary
> Jo Kopechne's death acceptable. They have nothing to do with each other.

Maybe you might want to explain to us leaving those Cubans on the Bay of
Pigs beach after promising them military support?

And - oh yeah - who was it that supported him in the first place?

Whereas you describe turning the fanatic Muslims attention back on
themselves as a "horror". Only a dyed-in-the-wool fool wouldn't have seen
that leaving extremist Islam to continue on their path would end in nuclear
war.

[Bill C]

On Jul 14, 6:19*pm, Fred Fredburger
<FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:

>
> I'm sick of it. It minimizes all that's wrong with the Bush
> Administration by reducing it to that one hunting incident, then excuses
> it by comparing it to the 40 year old Kennedy thing. It's delusional
> crap spit forth for the consumption of idiots in denial who refuse to
> take responsibility for their own decisions.
>
> I'm sure it's a good way to sell lots of bumper stickers, though.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

How does it minimize the actions of the Bush administration? The
stickers are obviously for right wing true believers, and the rest of
the car made it real clear that's who the guy was. Noone else would be
sporting one.
I don't see the rest of it though. How long os it after you leave
someone to die, in an incident you caused, that it no longer matters?
If hwe had quit drinking then, stopped dealing with women the way he
does, and did, etc... He was busy apologizing to Joan the other day,
for how he treated her, and for all the other women..
The incidents are failry comparable IMO since they both show reckless
distregard for others, horrible judgement, and the "ME FIRST" that
tends to be the centerpiece of many politicians.
I still find the comparison made by the sticker amusing but that
doesn't mean **** as far as any of the rest of either of their actions
go.
It's a lot more clever IMO than the barrage of bitter, whining
standard stickers I see a million of everyday.
Bill C

[Howard Kveck]

In article <XbCdnbe7P7R-TebVnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@comcast.com>,
Fred Fredburger <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:

> This material is very persuasive to a certain 3rd grade mindset. But
> it's a stupid, irrelevant comparison. Nothing Kennedy did justifies
> anything Cheney has done. The horror of the Bush administration doesn't
> make Mary Jo Kopechne's death acceptable. They have nothing to do with
> each other.
>
> I'm sick of it. It minimizes all that's wrong with the Bush
> Administration by reducing it to that one hunting incident, then excuses
> it by comparing it to the 40 year old Kennedy thing. It's delusional
> crap spit forth for the consumption of idiots in denial who refuse to
> take responsibility for their own decisions.

You know, Fred, I completely agree with you. I guess it bugs me to see people who
will keep bringing up a 39 year old ****up by Kennedy as a way to distract attention
from the monumental ****ups that Cheney has been involved in the last 7 1/2 years. I
certainly wasn't trying to imply that Cheney's **** eliminates the death of Mary Jo
Kopechne as a huge black mark against Ted Kennedy - I think his **** has had a much
greater impact on more lives. Plus he seems rather proud of it all - something you
certainly can't say about Kennedy.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[Tom Kunich]

"Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
news:UYSdnTFfvKYET-bVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> Everything the Bush Administration has ever done wrong is justified
> because they've always been able to find someone else's sins to talk
> about. Misdirection, name-calling, false comparisons but never, ever, ever
> an admission of error.
>
> Arguing with them about who's sins were worse is a sucker's game. It wont
> get you anywhere. They _like_ that argument.

How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north started to
win the War Between the States?

[Fred Fredburger]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> news:XbCdnbe7P7R-
>>
>> This material is very persuasive to a certain 3rd grade mindset. But
>> it's a stupid, irrelevant comparison. Nothing Kennedy did justifies
>> anything Cheney has done. The horror of the Bush administration
>> doesn't make Mary Jo Kopechne's death acceptable. They have nothing to
>> do with each other.
>
> Maybe you might want to explain to us leaving those Cubans on the Bay of
> Pigs beach after promising them military support?
>
> And - oh yeah - who was it that supported him in the first place?
>

Tom, that doesn't even have anything to do with Ted Kennedy.

> Whereas you describe turning the fanatic Muslims attention back on
> themselves as a "horror".

Let me understand you. You're saying that fanatic Muslims no longer pay
attention to the US. That is what you just said, right?

> Only a dyed-in-the-wool fool wouldn't have
> seen that leaving extremist Islam to continue on their path would end in
> nuclear war.

So that threat's neutralized, right?

[Fred Fredburger]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> news:UYSdnTFfvKYET-bVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> Everything the Bush Administration has ever done wrong is justified
>> because they've always been able to find someone else's sins to talk
>> about. Misdirection, name-calling, false comparisons but never, ever,
>> ever an admission of error.
>>
>> Arguing with them about who's sins were worse is a sucker's game. It
>> wont get you anywhere. They _like_ that argument.
>
> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north started
> to win the War Between the States?
>

3.14159?

[Tom Kunich]

"Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
news:KNednZKpDYEzRebVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>
> Tom, that doesn't even have anything to do with Ted Kennedy.

Yet anything that happens in the administration is Bush's fault. Gotcha.

>> Whereas you describe turning the fanatic Muslims attention back on
>> themselves as a "horror".
>
> Let me understand you. You're saying that fanatic Muslims no longer pay
> attention to the US. That is what you just said, right?

Well, what you're saying is that we can safely ignore those fanatic Muslims.
That is what you just said, right?

>> Only a dyed-in-the-wool fool wouldn't have seen that leaving extremist
>> Islam to continue on their path would end in nuclear war.
>
> So that threat's neutralized, right?

Aren't you telling us that there wasn't a threat to begin with?

[Tom Kunich]

"Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
news:KNednY2pDYG5RObVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
>> news:UYSdnTFfvKYET-bVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> Everything the Bush Administration has ever done wrong is justified
>>> because they've always been able to find someone else's sins to talk
>>> about. Misdirection, name-calling, false comparisons but never, ever,
>>> ever an admission of error.
>>>
>>> Arguing with them about who's sins were worse is a sucker's game. It
>>> wont get you anywhere. They _like_ that argument.
>>
>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north started to
>> win the War Between the States?
>
> 3.14159?

I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were talking
about.

[Fred Fredburger]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> news:KNednZKpDYEzRebVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>
>> Tom, that doesn't even have anything to do with Ted Kennedy.
>
> Yet anything that happens in the administration is Bush's fault. Gotcha.

That's not what I said. My complaint is that NOTHING bad is the Bush
administration's fault. Nothing. Anything bad was Clinton's fault or
else it can be negated by talking about, oh, the Bay of Pigs, for instance.

>
>>> Whereas you describe turning the fanatic Muslims attention back on
>>> themselves as a "horror".
>>
>> Let me understand you. You're saying that fanatic Muslims no longer
>> pay attention to the US. That is what you just said, right?
>
> Well, what you're saying is that we can safely ignore those fanatic
> Muslims. That is what you just said, right?
>
>>> Only a dyed-in-the-wool fool wouldn't have seen that leaving
>>> extremist Islam to continue on their path would end in nuclear war.
>>
>> So that threat's neutralized, right?
>
> Aren't you telling us that there wasn't a threat to begin with?
>

Nope. I'm saying that the efforts to deal with that threat have
frequently been off target.

[Fred Fredburger]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> news:KNednY2pDYG5RObVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in
>>> message news:UYSdnTFfvKYET-bVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>> Everything the Bush Administration has ever done wrong is justified
>>>> because they've always been able to find someone else's sins to talk
>>>> about. Misdirection, name-calling, false comparisons but never,
>>>> ever, ever an admission of error.
>>>>
>>>> Arguing with them about who's sins were worse is a sucker's game. It
>>>> wont get you anywhere. They _like_ that argument.
>>>
>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north
>>> started to win the War Between the States?
>>
>> 3.14159?
>
> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were
> talking about.
>

Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
even typing about it.

[Tom Kunich]

"Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
news:8eadnVdyodYyfebVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
>> news:KNednZKpDYEzRebVnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>
>>> Tom, that doesn't even have anything to do with Ted Kennedy.
>>
>> Yet anything that happens in the administration is Bush's fault. Gotcha.
>
> That's not what I said. My complaint is that NOTHING bad is the Bush
> administration's fault. Nothing. Anything bad was Clinton's fault or else
> it can be negated by talking about, oh, the Bay of Pigs, for instance.

Then you can certainly quote that can't you?

>> Well, what you're saying is that we can safely ignore those fanatic
>> Muslims. That is what you just said, right?
>>
>> Aren't you telling us that there wasn't a threat to begin with?
>
> Nope. I'm saying that the efforts to deal with that threat have frequently
> been off target.

I see that you still haven't discovered a place where everything always goes
according to plan and works right the first time. Oh, that's right - you
actually believe that the Clinton administration did everything perfect.

[Tom Kunich]

"Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north started
>>>> to win the War Between the States?
>>>
>>> 3.14159?
>>
>> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were talking
>> about.
>
> Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
> even typing about it.

I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about because
you simply aren't educated.

[Fred Fredburger]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north
>>>>> started to win the War Between the States?
>>>>
>>>> 3.14159?
>>>
>>> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were
>>> talking about.
>>
>> Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
>> even typing about it.
>
> I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about
> because you simply aren't educated.

I thought you were helping to prove my point that idiot Bush defenders
will talk about anything BUT Bush administration mis-steps.

I was afraid my point would be misinterpreted until you came along
sputtering about the Bay of Pigs and the Civil War. Thanks for that.

[Michael Press]

In article <kcGdneMCWuBVbubVnZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@earthlink.com>,
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> > Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north started
> >>>> to win the War Between the States?
> >>>
> >>> 3.14159?
> >>
> >> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were talking
> >> about.
> >
> > Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
> > even typing about it.
>
> I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about because
> you simply aren't educated.

Tom, I prefer not to get involved. HOWEVER, please reassess
for yourself how educated folks around here are. If you
tried to keep up, then you would start to get an idea.

--
Michael Press

[Bill C]

On Jul 14, 9:28*pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:

> *The incidents are failry comparable IMO since they both show reckless
> distregard for others, horrible judgement, and the "ME FIRST" that
> tends to be the centerpiece of many politicians.
> *Bill C

The attitude hasn't changed a bit for Cheney and the folks around him
either:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8345480/Uncertainty-slowing-progess-in-Tillman-investigation

Quoted:

The committee also looked into the case of Army Spc. Jesse Buryj of
Canton, Ohio. It took nine months for his family to learn that his
death in Iraq in May 2004 was not the result of an accidental vehicle
crash as they were first told. He was killed by fire from U.S. or
Polish soldiers in Karbala after a dump truck hurtled through a
checkpoint and crashed into the armored vehicle in which he was
riding.

Buryj's parents accepted an invitation to meet Bush at a July 2004
campaign rally. They told investigators they had pressed Bush to help
them find answers about their son's death, and said Bush agreed to
help.

"A few months later, a Bush-Cheney campaign official contacted the
family," the congressional investigators found. "Rather than offer
assistance, the official asked Specialist Buryj's mother to appear in
a campaign commercial for the president. Mrs. Buryj refused."

Bill C
Joe Friday Quotes:

"All we want are the facts, Ma'am."
"All we know are the facts, Ma'am."

[Fred Fredburger]

Bill C wrote:
> On Jul 14, 6:19 pm, Fred Fredburger
> <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>> I'm sick of it. It minimizes all that's wrong with the Bush
>> Administration by reducing it to that one hunting incident, then excuses
>> it by comparing it to the 40 year old Kennedy thing. It's delusional
>> crap spit forth for the consumption of idiots in denial who refuse to
>> take responsibility for their own decisions.
>>
>> I'm sure it's a good way to sell lots of bumper stickers, though.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> How does it minimize the actions of the Bush administration?

The Cheney hunting incident was the least of the Bush Administration
mistakes. But when the right talks about Bush Admin problems, that's
what they trot out while ignoring any real issues. Ignoring any real
issues is minimizing.

The Cheney hunting thing is a nonissue. The guy made a mistake. Even
handled it responsibly. Compare it to a Kennedy speeding ticket if you
want something comparable.


> The
> stickers are obviously for right wing true believers, and the rest of
> the car made it real clear that's who the guy was. Noone else would be
> sporting one.
> I don't see the rest of it though. How long os it after you leave
> someone to die, in an incident you caused, that it no longer matters?

How do you NOT get this: What Kennedy did has NOTHING to do with Cheney.
There is no connection. None.

> If hwe had quit drinking then, stopped dealing with women the way he
> does, and did, etc... He was busy apologizing to Joan the other day,
> for how he treated her, and for all the other women..
> The incidents are failry comparable

The worst thing that Kennedy did vs a relatively minor thing that Cheney
did. That's minimization, Bill.

>IMO since they both show reckless
> distregard for others, horrible judgement, and the "ME FIRST" that
> tends to be the centerpiece of many politicians.

That last word is wrong. Should have been "Human Beings".

> I still find the comparison made by the sticker amusing but that
> doesn't mean **** as far as any of the rest of either of their actions
> go.
> It's a lot more clever IMO than the barrage of bitter, whining
> standard stickers I see a million of everyday.

Strikes me as whining "It's OK, cause she hit me first" crap.

[Howard Kveck]

In article <46WdneXxPrk9g-HVnZ2dnUVZ_r7inZ2d@comcast.com>,
Fred Fredburger <Fred.Fredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:

> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredburger@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> > news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> >> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north
> >>>>> started to win the War Between the States?
> >>>>
> >>>> 3.14159?
> >>>
> >>> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were
> >>> talking about.
> >>
> >> Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
> >> even typing about it.
> >
> > I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about
> > because you simply aren't educated.
>
> I thought you were helping to prove my point that idiot Bush defenders
> will talk about anything BUT Bush administration mis-steps.
>
> I was afraid my point would be misinterpreted until you came along
> sputtering about the Bay of Pigs and the Civil War. Thanks for that.

Thought he wouldn't? Among other things, he is King of the Non Sequitur.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Jul 14, 6:48*pm, Fred Fredburger
<Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> >news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> >> Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north
> >>>>> started to win the War Between the States?
>
> >>>> 3.14159?
>
> >>> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were
> >>> talking about.
>
> >> Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
> >> even typing about it.
>
> > I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about
> > because you simply aren't educated.
>
> I thought you were helping to prove my point that idiot Bush defenders
> will talk about anything BUT Bush administration mis-steps.
>
> I was afraid my point would be misinterpreted until you came along
> sputtering about the Bay of Pigs and the Civil War. Thanks for that.

Dumbass,

Bill Clinton failed to prevent the Civil War.
Everybody knows that. Can you name a
single thing Bill Clinton did to stop the
Civil War from happening?
No? SEE?!?

Ben

[Bill C]

On Jul 15, 12:29*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:

>
> * *Well, you may be forgetting a couple of things about the Kennedys, Bill: two of
> them were assassinated. Also, in spite of being the least effective brother and
> having the Mary Jo Kopechne death on his conscience, Ted Kennedy has a fairly good
> legislative record. You may not like some of it (or all of it) but many people do.
>
> --
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full
> * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys
> * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Once again his ideology excuses his personal conduct? It's not about
his family, or just Chapaquidick, it's his lifelong behavior.
I agree that Cheney's record is worse, no comparison really, but that
doesn't minimize Kenedy's behavior and WTF do his brother's being
killed etc...have to do with judging how he's conducted his life?
You go ape**** when I, or someone else trots out this ****, call
strawman, and pound on it, now you are doing it, again.
It's really sad that being amused by a bumper sticker ends up here
due to ideology and partisanship.
Bill C

[Bill C]

On Jul 15, 12:29*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <d6f6dc9f-9e7d-455a-bac1-3f00c5cb8...@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups..com>,
> *Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 13, 9:41*pm, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> > > * *"Brutal behavior," huh...
>
> > *Supporting the IRA's "war", Long history of drunken public incidents,
> > his treatment and behavior towards women, etc...
>
> * *If you're going to go in to things far beyond the core issue here (MJ Kopechne vs.
> Harry Whittington), then you have no reason to complain that I point out things
> beyond that regarding Cheney. Right?
>
Nope, you expanded the scope WAY beyond what I was amused at in your
ongoing "nondefense".

> > *We wont go into his Politics. I agree with Ben that if you are
of his
> > persuasion ,high tax, big government, Nanny State, ideology he's a
> > hero.
>
> * *Oh yeah, that describes all of us on "the Left" to a 'T'. heh.
Give me your thumbnail of the left's vision. Mine has been generated
from FDR, LBJ "Great Society", and the folks here. If you have
something different that contradicts that fell free to provide it.
And I've said it before, shorthand groupings, such as "the left,
right, etc" are inherently inaccurate to some degree and are simple
liguistic and logical tools for dealing with large groups, they are
aproximations.

>
> > He's been incredibly effective.. None of that makes him a better
> > human being, but hey Bush is hammered still getting hammered as a
> > "former Alcoholic", goes well with this piece:
>
> * *We weren't talking about Bush. On the other hand, you like to claim that taking
> responsibility for your own actions are a great thing, but Bush certainly has fallen
> down on that job, wouldn't you say?
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/6q2ymp
>
> http://susiemadrak.com/2008/07/11/13/46/time-to-indict-the-war-profit...
>
> --
Yep he's failed miserably, and has been a miserable failure. IMO you
are absolutely correct on this point.


> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full
> * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys
> * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Bill C

[Bill C]

On Jul 15, 12:29*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <XbCdnbe7P7R-TebVnZ2dnUVZWhedn...@comcast.com>,
> *Fred Fredburger <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
> > This material is very persuasive to a certain 3rd grade mindset. But
> > it's a stupid, irrelevant comparison. Nothing Kennedy did justifies
> > anything Cheney has done. The horror of the Bush administration doesn't
> > make Mary Jo Kopechne's death acceptable. They have nothing to do with
> > each other.
>
> > I'm sick of it. It minimizes all that's wrong with the Bush
> > Administration by reducing it to that one hunting incident, then excuses
> > it by comparing it to the 40 year old Kennedy thing. It's delusional
> > crap spit forth for the consumption of idiots in denial who refuse to
> > take responsibility for their own decisions.
>
> * *You know, Fred, I completely agree with you. I guess it bugs me to see people who
> will keep bringing up a 39 year old ****up by Kennedy as a way to distract attention
> from the monumental ****ups that Cheney has been involved in the last 7 1/2 years. I
> certainly wasn't trying to imply that Cheney's **** eliminates the death of Mary Jo
> Kopechne as a huge black mark against Ted Kennedy - I think his **** has had a much
> greater impact on more lives. Plus he seems rather proud of it all - something you
> certainly can't say about Kennedy.
>
> --
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full
> * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys
> * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

I agree with ALL of it, but HTF do those two incidents prevent
discussion of the rest of their careers?
They are discreet incidents, and yes they have had effects on both
men's careers, much more on Kennedys over the long run.
Please show me where anyone is excusing this administrations record?
That guy might've, probably would've, but we don't know that since
none of us talked to him.
Yeah, both incidents are more important, and revelatory in the
context of the full life, but can also be discussed as individual
events without diminishing any of the rest of the context.
Why is that such a tough concept?
Bill C

[Bill C]

On Jul 15, 12:34*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> In article <46WdneXxPrk9g-HVnZ2dnUVZ_r7in...@comcast.com>,
> *Fred Fredburger <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
> > >news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> > >> Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north
> > >>>>> started to win the War Between the States?
>
> > >>>> 3.14159?
>
> > >>> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were
> > >>> talking about.
>
> > >> Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
> > >> even typing about it.
>
> > > I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about
> > > because you simply aren't educated.
>
> > I thought you were helping to prove my point that idiot Bush defenders
> > will talk about anything BUT Bush administration mis-steps.
>
> > I was afraid my point would be misinterpreted until you came along
> > sputtering about the Bay of Pigs and the Civil War. Thanks for that.
>
> * *Thought he wouldn't? Among other things, he is King of the Non Sequitur.
>
> --
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * tanx,
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Howard
>
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody pubs are bloody dull
> * * * * * * * * * *The bloody clubs are bloody full
> * * * * * * * * * *Of bloody girls and bloody guys
> * * * * * * * * * *With bloody murder in their eyes
>
> * * * * * * * * * * *remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Aren't you doing the same thing by bringing up Kennedy's record beyond
the referenced incident? The context of their careers is another
discussion.
Bill C

[Fred Fredburger]

bjw@mambo.ucolick.org wrote:
> On Jul 14, 6:48 pm, Fred Fredburger
> <Fred.Fredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> "Fred Fredburger" <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote in message
>>> news:8eadnVZyodbGfObVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>> Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> How many commanding Generals did Lincoln have before the north
>>>>>>> started to win the War Between the States?
>>>>>> 3.14159?
>>>>> I didn't expect you to actually know anything about what you were
>>>>> talking about.
>>>> Tom, you're not making sense. I wasn't talking about the Civil War. Or
>>>> even typing about it.
>>> I didn't expect you to actually understand what I was talking about
>>> because you simply aren't educated.
>> I thought you were helping to prove my point that idiot Bush defenders
>> will talk about anything BUT Bush administration mis-steps.
>>
>> I was afraid my point would be misinterpreted until you came along
>> sputtering about the Bay of Pigs and the Civil War. Thanks for that.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> Bill Clinton failed to prevent the Civil War.
> Everybody knows that. Can you name a
> single thing Bill Clinton did to stop the
> Civil War from happening?
> No? SEE?!?

Ooo! Look at the monkey!

[Howard Kveck]

In article <fdef3e0e-93ca-4daf-83b1-2c73ee896abb@k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 15, 12:29*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> > In article <XbCdnbe7P7R-TebVnZ2dnUVZWhedn...@comcast.com>,
> > *Fred Fredburger <FredFredbur...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> >
> > > This material is very persuasive to a certain 3rd grade mindset. But
> > > it's a stupid, irrelevant comparison. Nothing Kennedy did justifies
> > > anything Cheney has done. The horror of the Bush administration doesn't
> > > make Mary Jo Kopechne's death acceptable. They have nothing to do with
> > > each other.
> >
> > > I'm sick of it. It minimizes all that's wrong with the Bush
> > > Administration by reducing it to that one hunting incident, then excuses
> > > it by comparing it to the 40 year old Kennedy thing. It's delusional
> > > crap spit forth for the consumption of idiots in denial who refuse to
> > > take responsibility for their own decisions.
> >
> > * *You know, Fred, I completely agree with you. I guess it bugs me to see
> > people who will keep bringing up a 39 year old ****up by Kennedy as a way to
> > distract attention from the monumental ****ups that Cheney has been involved
> > in the last 7 1/2 years. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that Cheney's ****
> > eliminates the death of Mary Jo Kopechne as a huge black mark against Ted
> > Kennedy - I think his **** has had a much greater impact on more lives. Plus he
> > seems rather proud of it all - something you certainly can't say about Kennedy.

> I agree with ALL of it, but HTF do those two incidents prevent
> discussion of the rest of their careers?
> They are discreet incidents, and yes they have had effects on both
> men's careers, much more on Kennedys over the long run.
> Please show me where anyone is excusing this administrations record?

You are kidding, right? I'm not saying you are or do, but if we want to in this
group, then look no further than the usual suspects of Bush support: Steve Taylor,
Kunich or Jack Hollis. Then go out into various right wing sources like Hannity or
Limbaugh or any (huge) number of others. It's obvious when people pop off with the
standard "But Clinton did..." when this admin. does something. Illegal wiretapping?
"But Clinton did it first!" (Not.) Lies about WMD? But Clinton said so too!"
(Forgetting or ignoring that his CIA director was James Woolsey, who was a big
proponent of war with Iraq and bout into *every* crazy thing that made Iraq look
bad.) Or even "I'd rather hunt with Cheney than ride with Ted Kennedy" and "Cheney
didn't leave him to die" stickers.

> Yeah, both incidents are more important, and revelatory in the
> context of the full life, but can also be discussed as individual
> events without diminishing any of the rest of the context.
> Why is that such a tough concept?

Why, indeed, Bill. You now want to claim that it was all about these two "discreet
incidents" and nothing more but you forget who brought up the issue of Kennedy's
alleged greater record:
_________________________________
"Agreed I wouldn't ride with Teddy, and his passed on buddy "Tip", or
go anywhere near Cheney with a weapon. The point being that Teddy is
still a "hero", read all the latest drivel after his cancer was
announced, despite his brutal behavior."
_________________________________
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/6f7591fca2e98f38

-----------------------------------------

In article <a4833d33-d4fc-4e1d-a690-5bf8ad13b614@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 15, 12:29*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:

> > * *If you're going to go in to things far beyond the core issue here (MJ
> > Kopechne vs. Harry Whittington), then you have no reason to complain that
> > I point out things beyond that regarding Cheney. Right?
> >
> Nope, you expanded the scope WAY beyond what I was amused at in your
> ongoing "nondefense".

You think *I* expanded it? See above. You even added in Tip O'Neill. The fact that
you still insist that I'm "defending" Kennedy says a lot about you.

> > > *We wont go into his Politics. I agree with Ben that if you are
> > > of his persuasion ,high tax, big government, Nanny State, ideology he's a
> > > hero.
> >
> > * *Oh yeah, that describes all of us on "the Left" to a 'T'. heh.

> Give me your thumbnail of the left's vision.

Well, surprise, surprise. Back to this. You can't let it go, can you?

> Mine has been generated from FDR, LBJ "Great Society", and the folks here.
> If you have something different that contradicts that fell free to provide it.
> And I've said it before, shorthand groupings, such as "the left,
> right, etc" are inherently inaccurate to some degree and are simple
> liguistic and logical tools for dealing with large groups, they are
> aproximations.

Of course they're approximations, but you so often go straight for the most
extreme version that the right wing has been teaching for the last 50+ years. All the
stereotypes are present. I'd say your mind is pretty well made up.

-----------------------------------------

Bill C <tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Jul 15, 12:29*am, Howard Kveck <YOURhow...@h-SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > * *Well, you may be forgetting a couple of things about the Kennedys, Bill:
> > two of them were assassinated. Also, in spite of being the least effective
> > brother and having the Mary Jo Kopechne death on his conscience, Ted Kennedy
> > has a fairly good legislative record. You may not like some of it (or all of
> > it) but many people do.

> Once again his ideology excuses his personal conduct? It's not about
> his family, or just Chapaquidick, it's his lifelong behavior.

No, Bill, his "personal conduct" isn't effecting his ability to legislate or what
he legislates. I'd say that pretty much no one "excuses" him for the MJ Kopechne
incident. You're arguing (again) about things I haven't said.

> I agree that Cheney's record is worse, no comparison really, but that
> doesn't minimize Kenedy's behavior and WTF do his brother's being
> killed etc...have to do with judging how he's conducted his life?
> You go ape**** when I, or someone else trots out this ****, call
> strawman, and pound on it, now you are doing it, again.

I "go ape****?" Hardly. Anyway, there's a reason for the response: that's exactly
what you're doing. It gets "pounded on" because you trot out one twist and spin after
the other, drifting along until you demand that I explain what "the left" is really
all about. Whatever...

--
tanx,