I saw Critical Mass

[KingOfTheApes]

and didn't like what I saw. I was coming on the bus (how else if
riding a bike is so dangerous on that road), and all of a sudden I see
a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road. Some of them darting to
block the whole 3 lane road, and then back to taking 1 or 2 lanes. The
bus driver patiently slows to their pace for a while, until he decided
he had a schedule and blasted the horn at the unruly riders taking
unnecessary lanes...

First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
example, would have announced their cause. And secondly, that strategy
of blocking all lanes, doesn't make you friends.

So the wild monkeys were in rebellion, but nobody knew their cause. A
good slogan for the T-shirts would have been: "Hey, do like we did and
come out of your cages. R-evolution!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Riding a bike costs peanuts --which is why monkeys love biking"

http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote88

VELORUTION!
http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote91

[Tom Sherman]

Fabrizio Mazzoleni wrote:
> "Jym Dyer" <jym@econet.org> wrote in message news:Jym.28Jul2008.488df715@scorcher.org...
>>>> Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign. In
>>>> fact, on the rare occasions where things go a little awry
>>>> and contentions arise between riders & drivers, there is
>>>> much introspection, consideration and discussion among CM
>>>> participants as to how to better handle things in future.
>
>
> Jym, as usual you troublemakers are giving us
> serious cyclists a bad image.
>
> Please take it off the road.
>
>
Hey, check out Fabrizio's new saddle:
<http://ladenx.com/ccr/product_info.php?cPath=58_65&products_id=382&osCsid=bd38eb75b468d87c197c4b063997>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

[Tom Sherman]

Pat in NY wrote:
> On Aug 6, 10:06 pm, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
> wrote:
>> Pat in NY wrote:
>>> On Aug 6, 12:57 pm, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:
>>>>>> = Pat
>>>>>> First off, other vehicles that use roads pay for the
>>>>>> privilege. They pay licensing fees, fuel taxes, and in
>>>>>> some cases, tolls. You want to skate away, tax free.
>>>> =v= Motorists do pay a lot for their transportation mode,
>>>> which makes them invested in car-based transportation and
>>>> also promotes a sense of overentitlement, a mindset that
>>>> Pat exhibits here.
>>>>> = Tom Sherman
>>>>> Nonsense. Local roads are funded primarily by property
>>>>> taxes in most states. In addition, motorists do not pay
>>>>> the full cost of fuel (e.g. US military forces in oil
>>>>> producing regions), with the subsidies coming from income
>>>>> and other non-motorist specific taxes.
>>>> =v= Tom nails it, but I will take it further. Despite all
>>>> the money they pay, motorists are operating at a deficit.
>>>> Anyone using any other transportation mode is subsidizing
>>>> motorists. Bicyclists, who are using the most efficient
>>>> ground transportation mode ever devised,
>>> Huh? The free market is a wonderful thing and people gravitate towards
>>> efficiencies and what brings them the biggest bang for their bucks.
>>> For a few, isolated people; bikes might make sense. But for the vast
>>> majority of people they are incredibly inefficient. The trade-off
>>> between time and anything else just isn't worth it to them.
>> butbutbut, riding a bicycle is fun. The commuting time is enjoyable.
>>
>>> For example, I work out of my house. Wonderfully efficient. I burn
>>> no gas and spend no time commuting. But once a week or so I have out-
>>> of-town meetings. Yesterday, it was about 200 miles away -- and it
>>> was at a central location. I suppose one could bike there, but the
>>> trade-off with time would be prohibitive. Plus it would cost a lot
>>> more, because you'd need a hotel to stay in and that would set you
>>> back a lot more that my driving expense ever would.
>> If one had the time, riding two double centuries would be cool.
>>
>>> Great if bikes work for you, but you're living a different sort of
>>> life than most people do.
>>> When I see people riding their bikes to the ski slopes carrying their
>>> equipment and toting their kids, then I'll know the world has
>>> changed. 20 miles of road with 6" of snow on it when it's 0F doesn't
>>> sound like a pleasant bike ride at night.
>> Downhill skiing is an elitist sport. Big deal if people can not get to
>> the overpriced resort.
>
> I'm not concerned about "people", I'm concerned about me and my
> family. Both of my kids ski (snowboard, actually). It's not
> particularly expensive. They both buy season passes through their
> schools. Both schools have ski clubs and one has a ski team. Last
> year they boarded about 80 days. It's not particularly elitist around
> here, unless you define elitist as what about half the kids do.
>
So you live in an elitist area.

Now if the skiers had to get UP the slope under their own power, I might
change my mind. Without that, downhill skiing is a motorized sport, with
motors used to provide gravitational potential energy.

Buy some cross-country skis and head off into the woods instead.

> Hey, maybe the government should build special ski roads and give the
> skiers special rights and privileges because it's elitist, slow, and
> fun.... Hmmmmm.

Cycling is hardly elitist, since a top of the line commuter bicycle can
be had for the same price as a 12 year old automobile.

Cyclists have no special rights and privileges; rather motorists have
more restrictions since their motor vehicles pose a much greater threat
to the well-being of society than a bicycle does.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

[Scott M. Kozel]

KingOfTheApes <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> and didn't like what I saw. I was coming on the bus (how else if
> riding a bike is so dangerous on that road), and all of a sudden I see
> a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road. Some of them darting to
> block the whole 3 lane road, and then back to taking 1 or 2 lanes. The
> bus driver patiently slows to their pace for a while, until he decided
> he had a schedule and blasted the horn at the unruly riders taking
> unnecessary lanes...
>
> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
> example, would have announced their cause. And secondly, that strategy
> of blocking all lanes, doesn't make you friends.
>
> So the wild monkeys were in rebellion, but nobody knew their cause. A
> good slogan for the T-shirts would have been: "Hey, do like we did and
> come out of your cages. R-evolution!"

"The revolution will not be televised"

[invasivenorman@gmail.com]

On Jul 26, 10:34*am, KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> and didn't like what I saw.
. . .
>
> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to.

You mean just like the _literally_millions_ of horseless carriage
riders every day?

[BIG ONE]

On 26 Jul, 16:34, KingOfTheApes <cocksucker.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I was coming on the bus

whatever turns you on

>(how else if riding a bike is so dangerous on that road)

how could it be dangerous CM was on ... or don't you know anything
about it?

> and all of a sudden I see a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road.

that's right - well done, now why didn't you think - 'hey! i should be
down there with them
on the side of the angels' ?
<snip the bla>

> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to.

how do you know this ... get off the bus & interview folk did you?

you-'excuse me sir'
cyclist- 'yea'
you - 'do you know what you are up to'
cyclist - 'no'
you - 'well i'll just get on to usenet about this then'

> Some T-shirts, for
> example, would have announced their cause.

missing the point aren't you?
were you wearing a 'i'm on a bus' t-shirt ?

> And secondly, that strategy
> of blocking all lanes, doesn't make you friends.

like you ???
aren't you friendly?

> So the wild monkeys were in rebellion, but nobody knew their cause. A
> good slogan for the T-shirts would have been: "Hey, do like we did and
> come out of your cages. R-evolution!"

print some & hand them out next month, you are only involved if you
get involved & if you're not involved ......
GET OUT OF THE WAY

[GeneralissimoApeshit]

> VELORUTION!http://webspawner.com/users/donquijote91

Cross-Posting Spammer.

[KingOfTheApes]

Originally Posted by Allister
"You sure do have a unique sales pitch for your shirts."

They are unique because they are as much fun as the monkey that
represents the revolution. He's in a cage (unable to ride bikes) while
the other monkeys drive around in cages... Funny, no?

And the public opinion does like the three wise monkeys...

http://danielmejia.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/the-3-monkeys.jpg

[Bill Sornson]

On Jul 26, 9:58*am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:

> "The revolution will not be televised"

http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined

[Tom Keats]

In article <488B57C3.40CEB5DB@comcast.net>,
"Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@comcast.net> writes:
> KingOfTheApes <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> and didn't like what I saw.

You saw a bunch of people acting like self-entitled drivers.
You saw a mirror reflection of how self-entitled drivers
behave.

>>I was coming on the bus (how else if
>> riding a bike is so dangerous on that road), and all of a sudden I see
>> a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road.

That settles it! You /are/ indeed anti-bike.

>> Some of them darting to
>> block the whole 3 lane road, and then back to taking 1 or 2 lanes. The
>> bus driver patiently slows to their pace for a while, until he decided
>> he had a schedule and blasted the horn at the unruly riders taking
>> unnecessary lanes...
>>
>> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
>> example, would have announced their cause.

Ersatz uniforms, eh? **** that noise.
And you can shove that concept up your ass,
with vigour. I'm hereby suspecting you of
being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
trying to establish a bundt.

Phf**** you.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 26, 12:58*pm, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
> KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > and didn't like what I saw. I was coming on the bus (how else if
> > riding a bike is so dangerous on that road), and all of a sudden I see
> > a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road. Some of them darting to
> > block the whole 3 lane road, and then back to taking 1 or 2 lanes. The
> > bus driver patiently slows to their pace for a while, until he decided
> > he had a schedule and blasted the horn at the unruly riders taking
> > unnecessary lanes...
>
> > First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
> > example, would have announced their cause. And secondly, that strategy
> > of blocking all lanes, doesn't make you friends.
>
> > So the wild monkeys were in rebellion, but nobody knew their cause. A
> > good slogan for the T-shirts would have been: "Hey, do like we did and
> > come out of your cages. R-evolution!"
>
> "The revolution will not be televised"- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I think the revolution will be televised on premium cable, to keep the
proles away from it.

Good thing we've got the Internet, right?

[Jym Dyer]

>> A good slogan for the T-shirts would have been: "Hey, do like
>> we did and come out of your cages. R-evolution!"

=v= Looks like Don Quixote / No Lion No Problem / Commandante
Banana / King of the Apes is SPAMMING us to sell his stupid
T-shirts.

> "The revolution will not be televised"

=v= Do a web search for "The revolution will not be motorized."
<_Jym_>

P.S.: Note followups AWAY from groups where this is off-topic.

[Bill Sornson]

On Jul 26, 12:55*pm, Bill Sornson <so...@san.rr.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 9:58*am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > "The revolution will not be televised"
>
> http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined

Ooops. Looks like you have to click the "Critical Mass" banner on
left side of video pane.

[Tim McNamara]

Bill Sornson <sorni@san.rr.com> writes:

> On Jul 26, 9:58*am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "The revolution will not be televised"
>
> http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined

CM is sure a bunch o' twits. They, like too many others, have
confused being anti-car with being pro-bike. They are not the same.

[Jym Dyer]

=v= A better URL for the San Diego CM story:

http://www.cbs8.com/stories/story.135696.html

- which will pop up a Flash video -

http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135696

<_Jym_>

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> ...
> Phf**** you.
>
Is that the Daffy Duck pronunciation?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon.

[Tom Keats]

In article <fq0g6g.ur3.ln@news.motzarella.org>,
tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:
> In article <488B57C3.40CEB5DB@comcast.net>,
> "Scott M. Kozel" <kozelsm@comcast.net> writes:
>> KingOfTheApes <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> wrote:

Yikes!!

I wasn't intending to respond to Scott.

My comments were directed to the Original Poster
(KingOfTheApes/Don Quijote/Orlando.)

I hope & need for it to be understood that I
wasn't talking to Scott M. Kozel; I was talking
to the boneheaded Nazi-ish fool who currently
calls himself KingOfTheApes.

klahowya,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 26, 4:18*pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <488B57C3.40CEB...@comcast.net>,
> * * * * "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> writes:
>
> > KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> and didn't like what I saw.
>
> You saw a bunch of people acting like self-entitled drivers.
> You saw a mirror reflection of how self-entitled drivers
> behave.
>
> >>I was coming on the bus (how else if
> >> riding a bike is so dangerous on that road), and all of a sudden I see
> >> a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road.
>
> That settles it! *You /are/ indeed anti-bike.
>
> >> Some of them darting to
> >> block the whole 3 lane road, and then back to taking 1 or 2 lanes. The
> >> bus driver patiently slows to their pace for a while, until he decided
> >> he had a schedule and blasted the horn at the unruly riders taking
> >> unnecessary lanes...
>
> >> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
> >> example, would have announced their cause.
>
> Ersatz uniforms, eh? ***** that noise.
> And you can shove that concept up your ass,
> with vigour. *I'm hereby suspecting you of
> being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
> trying to establish a bundt.
>
> Phf**** you.
>

No, I'm not a Nazi, I'm not a Marxist or Maoist. I'm for organizing
the monkeys, so they have a better chance of success. T-shirts,
banners, flyers are necessary. Blocking the streets is not.

"Do something for your fellow monkeys in the cages. Give them a taste
of freedom --and banana. R-evolution!"

http://www.zazzle.com/r_evolution_change_is_good_shirt-235220369211816605

[Tom Keats]

In article <g6g1pd$jor$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>> ...
>> Phf**** you.
>>
> Is that the Daffy Duck pronunciation?

Sylvester The Cat. More spittle is ejected.


be fruitful, multiply, and go forth,
Tom





--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 26, 5:31 pm, invasivenor...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 26, 10:34 am, KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > and didn't like what I saw.
> . . .
>
> > First of all, nobody knew what they were up to.
>
> You mean just like the _literally_millions_ of horseless carriage
> riders every day?

Oh, forgive me, but that language is rather old. I call the "horseless
carriage riders" "monkeys in cages," which gives us an idea of who we
are dealing with. No, we are not dealing with horses, but with monkeys
who drive because they see everybody else driving. That's called
"monkey see monkey do." And the hope is that when they see enough bike
rides out there WITH A CLEAR MESSAGE, they'll follow suit.

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 26, 9:43*pm, BIG ONE <telavers...@****you.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26 Jul, 16:34, KingOfTheApes <cocksucker.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I was coming on the bus
>
> whatever turns you on
>
> >(how else if riding a bike is so dangerous on that road)
>
> how could it be dangerous CM was on ... or don't you know anything
> about it?

My friend, you don't about the things of the jungle. There's a
principle called "safety in numbers." I was alone on that road I would
be crushed with no pity.
>
> > and all of a sudden I see a bunch of cyclists loosely riding the road.
>
> that's right - well done, now why didn't you think - 'hey! i should be
> down there with them
> on the side of the angels' ?
> <snip the bla>

No, I don't belong to the cagers, I don't belong with the wild
monkeys. I have my sympathies for Anarchists, but I don't like to
waste my time and perhaps life.
>
> > First of all, nobody knew what they were up to.
>
> how do you know this ... get off the bus & interview folk did you?

If I wasn't involved in the revolution, I'd have thought they were a
bunch of tourists from Holland lost on our Darwinistic roads.

>
> you-'excuse me sir'
> cyclist- 'yea'
> you - 'do you know what you are up to'
> cyclist - 'no'
> you - 'well i'll just get on to usenet about this then'
>
> > Some T-shirts, for
> > example, would have announced their cause.
>
> missing the point aren't you?
> were you wearing a 'i'm on a bus' t-shirt ?

Buses are in the revolution, dummy.

"Hey, if you ride public transportation to save the environment, it's
time to be proud of it. Show the selfish drivers of the Stupid
Unnecessary Vehicles that you are bigger than them."

http://www.zazzle.com/dinosaur_on_a_diet_shirt-235622859773439204

>
> > And secondly, that strategy
> > of blocking all lanes, doesn't make you friends.
>
> like you ???
> aren't you friendly?

Yes, I'm friendly to cagers by not occupying all the lanes (just one)
and I'm even friendly to cats on the road. I've never killed a cat
with a bike. Just give them a scare with the bell.

>
> > So the wild monkeys were in rebellion, but nobody knew their cause. A
> > good slogan for the T-shirts would have been: "Hey, do like we did and
> > come out of your cages. R-evolution!"
>
> print some & hand them out next month, you are only involved if you
> get involved & if you're not involved ......
> GET OUT OF THE WAY

Wild monkeys are good for the lion. He makes the point to the sheep
that they need "peace and safety" from the "dangerous apes" out there.
And you know the sheep need order and leaders. ;)

What we need to organize the free monkeys (those already outside the
cages and riding bikes and buses) to show THE WAY to the rest of the
crowd. Remember, MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO.

[Tom Keats]

In article <m2prp06q2u.fsf@bitstream.net>,
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> writes:
> Bill Sornson <sorni@san.rr.com> writes:
>
>> On Jul 26, 9:58*am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> "The revolution will not be televised"
>>
>> http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined
>
> CM is sure a bunch o' twits. They, like too many others, have
> confused being anti-car with being pro-bike. They are not the same.

They're pro Freedom Of Movement. Something of which
streams of POVs denies people.

Every urban rush hour is a Critical Mass of cars &
their drivers. A metallic and mechanized Critical
Mass that casts humanity aside.

CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.

It's about the often stupid ways we people get
ourselves around.

Anyone who dislikes monthly bicycle Critical Mass should have
a real antipathy toward daily car Critical Mass -- and maybe
wise-up and stop contributing to it.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Nuxx Bar]

On Jul 27, 3:03*am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> Bill Sornson <so...@san.rr.com> writes:
> > On Jul 26, 9:58*am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >> "The revolution will not be televised"
>
> >http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined
>
> CM is sure a bunch o' twits. *They, like too many others, have
> confused being anti-car with being pro-bike. *They are not the same.

Quite right. "too many others" includes the majority of the most
prolific posters on uk.rec.cycling, who claim to be pro-bike because
they're too cowardly to admit to being anti-car. They implicitly
support the likes of Critical Mass by refusing to condemn them (in
fact, many of them are probably fully paid-up members). And
mysteriously, they just happen to support every single anti-motorist
measure...I wonder why?

Good to know that other bicycle newsgroups haven't gone down the pan
in the same way. If I was a keen cycling advocate, I'd be furious
about the car-haters pretending to be cycling advocates and trashing
our reputation. Members of the rec.bicycles.* newsgroups need to be
vigilant to ensure that the anti-motorist/CM crowd don't take over
their groups in the same way as they have urc.

Guy Cuthbertson

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 27, 3:38 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:

<sniped for clarity>

- on Critical Mass -
>
> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>

BINGO!!!

<remainder snipped>

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 27, 4:38*am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
about the good things about bicycles.
>
> It's about the often stupid ways we people get
> ourselves around.
>
> Anyone who dislikes monthly bicycle Critical Mass should have
> a real antipathy toward daily car Critical Mass -- and maybe
> wise-up and stop contributing to it.

That's too deep for them. When did you get that smart?

Your point is exactly right. But nobody has much sympathy for them
either. Remember that. ;)

[Tim McNamara]

tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:

> In article <m2prp06q2u.fsf@bitstream.net>,
> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> writes:
>> Bill Sornson <sorni@san.rr.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Jul 26, 9:58*am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "The revolution will not be televised"
>>>
>>> http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined
>>
>> CM is sure a bunch o' twits. They, like too many others, have
>> confused being anti-car with being pro-bike. They are not the
>> same.
>
> They're pro Freedom Of Movement. Something of which streams of POVs
> denies people.

Oh bull****. CM is about sticking it in the faces of drivers. You
can wrap a pile of **** in nice wrapping paper with a big bow, but
it's still a pile of ****.

> Every urban rush hour is a Critical Mass of cars & their drivers. A
> metallic and mechanized Critical Mass that casts humanity aside.

A critical mass that more or less obeys the rules of the road, unlike
the Critical Mass rides which emphasize and celebrate flouting the law.

> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>
> It's about the often stupid ways we people get ourselves around.
>
> Anyone who dislikes monthly bicycle Critical Mass should have a real
> antipathy toward daily car Critical Mass -- and maybe wise-up and
> stop contributing to it.

Again, bull****. CM is an activity with no clear agenda, no clear
objective, no way of communicating any agenda or goals. CM is just
about pissiness and stickin' it to Da Man, in this case Da Man in Da
Car. It's a counterproductive exercise onto which some apologists-
like yourself- project hifalutin crapola to justify the antagonism.

You want to support bicycling as a practical transportation
alternative? Just ride your bike. Follow the laws (including red
lights and stop signs). Don't ride erratically, don't ride the wrong
way down one way streets, don't jump on and off the sidewalks, etc.
Ride like you're an ambassador of cycling. Look like you're having
fun. Don't dress like you're in the Tour de France.

[Roger Merriman]

Tom Keats <tkeats2005@hotmail.com> wrote:

> In article <m2prp06q2u.fsf@bitstream.net>,
> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> writes:
> > Bill Sornson <sorni@san.rr.com> writes:
> >
> >> On Jul 26, 9:58 am, "Scott M. Kozel" <koze...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> "The revolution will not be televised"
> >>
> >> http://www.cbs8.com/flv/video_pop_hd3.php?startID=135672&cat=undefined
> >
> > CM is sure a bunch o' twits. They, like too many others, have
> > confused being anti-car with being pro-bike. They are not the same.
>
> They're pro Freedom Of Movement. Something of which
> streams of POVs denies people.
>
> Every urban rush hour is a Critical Mass of cars &
> their drivers. A metallic and mechanized Critical
> Mass that casts humanity aside.
>
> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>
> It's about the often stupid ways we people get
> ourselves around.
>
> Anyone who dislikes monthly bicycle Critical Mass should have
> a real antipathy toward daily car Critical Mass -- and maybe
> wise-up and stop contributing to it.

and reforcing the negative sterotype of cycling helps us how?

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

[Tom Keats]

In article <13ff3454-00e8-480b-bff9-7b40da6a9afa@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> writes:
> On Jul 27, 3:38 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> <sniped for clarity>

Snipped for what?

> - on Critical Mass -
>>
>> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>>
>
> BINGO!!!
>
> <remainder snipped>

Critical Mass is a showcase of the bad things about POV cars.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Tim McNamara]

tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:

> In article <13ff3454-00e8-480b-bff9-7b40da6a9afa@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> writes:
>> On Jul 27, 3:38 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>
>> <sniped for clarity>
>
> Snipped for what?
>
>> - on Critical Mass -
>>>
>>> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>>>
>>
>> BINGO!!!
>>
>> <remainder snipped>
>
> Critical Mass is a showcase of the bad things about POV cars.

You wish. CM is mostly a showcase of the arrrogance, stupidity and
aggression of its participants.

I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know people who
have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't pay attention
to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when the right of
way actually belongs to someone else. They don't think traffic laws
apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists create their own
problems on the road.

[Tom Keats]

In article <ac9490e5-7b6e-48b9-858f-ea7a1a67bb37@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
KingOfTheApes <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> writes:
> On Jul 26, 4:18*pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:

>> >> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
>> >> example, would have announced their cause.
>>
>> Ersatz uniforms, eh? ***** that noise.
>> And you can shove that concept up your ass,
>> with vigour. *I'm hereby suspecting you of
>> being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
>> trying to establish a bundt.
>>
>> Phf**** you.
>>
> No, I'm not a Nazi, I'm not a Marxist or Maoist. I'm for organizing
> the monkeys, so they have a better chance of success.

That's what they all say.

You have shown your colours, and you can't retract them.

Maybe you should invest in an ant farm or an aquarium.

Organize those.

Maybe pace around them with a swagger-stick and a Mauser
machine pistol and a dour demeanour.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[BIG ONE]

On Jul 27, 4:15*pm, KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 26, 9:43*pm, BIG ONE <telavers...@****you.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 26 Jul, 16:34, KingOfTheApes <cocksucker.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > >(how else if riding a bike is so dangerous on that road)
>
> > how could it be dangerous CM was on ... or don't you know anything
> > about it?
>
> My friend, you don't about the things of the jungle. There's a
> principle called "safety in numbers." I was alone on that road I would
> be crushed with no pity.

oh that would be a pity ;¬)

but i imagine that was intended to be a conditional sentence ... with
an 'if'
but _if_ you had been riding you would not have been alone,
because you would have been part of the mass
- which sounds to me like it was going the right route for once.
perhaps you'll be able to ride on that jungle path next month


> I don't belong with the wild
> monkeys. I have my sympathies for Anarchists, but I don't like to
> waste my time and perhaps life.

I have similar sympathies, but i like to waste my time ... which is
why I am on usenet,
you on the other hand are on usenet for another reason?


> > > First of all, nobody knew what they were up to.
>
> > how do you know this ... get off the bus & interview folk did you?
>
> If I wasn't involved in the revolution, I'd have thought they were abunchoftouristsfromHollandlost on our Darwinistic roads.
<snip>
> Buses are in the revolution, dummy.

yea, on the wrong side - along with WVM & taxis

> "Hey, if you ride public transportation to save the environment, it's
> time to be proud of it. Show the selfish drivers of the Stupid
> Unnecessary Vehicles that you are bigger than them."

ok ... but that is probably off topic on cycling groups,
a lot of my cycling is unnecessary by any standards
& as I could actually walk everywhere I go
are you saying my bikes are unnecessay vehicles?
well I'm a bit upset at that.
but anyhow I feel that a bike is a better solution
than the public transport is to your being in the wrong place

<snip>
> Wild monkeys are good for the lion. He makes the point to the sheep
> that they need "peace and safety" from the "dangerous apes" out there.
> And you know the sheep need order and leaders. ;)
>
> What we need to organize the free monkeys (those already outside the
> cages and riding bikes and buses) to show THE WAY to the rest of the
> crowd. Remember, MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO.

can't tell them what to do in my book ... & if you try we'll just
ignore you

[KingOfTheApes]

If you want to follow up with the revolution and why I said this...

"The day you want to take the streets of Miami by storm, let me know.
But no wild (anarchist) monkeys blocking traffic.

T-shirts, flyers and some bananas will do!"

click here...

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=7144336&posted=1#post7144336

[Tim McNamara]

Here's the face of CM for the general public.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/27/hahn.car.bike.showdown.king

Productive, huh? Once again, cyclists as hooligans and drivers as
law-abiding citizens. Critical Mass assholes setting cycling back one
last Friday at a time. Morons.

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 27, 12:03*pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

> You want to support bicycling as a practical transportation
> alternative? *Just ride your bike. *Follow the laws (including red
> lights and stop signs). *Don't ride erratically, don't ride the wrong
> way down one way streets, don't jump on and off the sidewalks, etc.
> Ride like you're an ambassador of cycling. *Look like you're having
> fun. *Don't dress like you're in the Tour de France.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's fine, but at that rate will never win the race to stop Global
Warming or wars over oil. Maybe it'll take 100 years to change a world
that denies change because the ones that make the policies only see
the $$$.

Enough said, we need the r-evolution...

WORLD REVOLUTION
"The World Revolution is an idea for a new, global activist social
movement for progressive social change. It aims to resolve in a
definitive and comprehensive manner the major social problems of our
world and our era. Major issue areas of the World Revolution include:
peace, human rights, the environment, and world poverty."
http://www.worldrevolution.org/

[Sweet Old Bob]

On Jul 27, 11:03*am, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

> A critical mass (of cars is one that) that more or less obeys the rules of the road, unlike
> the Critical Mass rides which emphasize and celebrate flouting the law.

You're kidding, right? There's much more lawlessness done by the
private auto. Do cars really stop at red? Do cars stop at a red
light before turning? Isn't 5-10 MPH over the speed limit OK?

The ordinary automobile driver sets the standard for what is the law.
Except an automobile can cause much more carnage than a bike.

> Again, bull****. *CM is an activity with no clear agenda, no clear
> objective, no way of communicating any agenda or goals. *

Wrong. Critical Mass celebrates the bicycle; it says "Bikes are fun!"

[Tom Keats]

In article <m2iqur1f99.fsf@bitstream.net>,
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> writes:
> tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:
>
>> In article <13ff3454-00e8-480b-bff9-7b40da6a9afa@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>> Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatelier@ozarkbicycleservice.com> writes:
>>> On Jul 27, 3:38 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>>
>>> <sniped for clarity>
>>
>> Snipped for what?
>>
>>> - on Critical Mass -
>>>>
>>>> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>>>>
>>>
>>> BINGO!!!
>>>
>>> <remainder snipped>
>>
>> Critical Mass is a showcase of the bad things about POV cars.
>
> You wish. CM is mostly a showcase of the arrrogance, stupidity and
> aggression of its participants.
>
> I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
> 40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
> drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know people who
> have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
> why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't pay attention
> to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
> anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when the right of
> way actually belongs to someone else. They don't think traffic laws
> apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists create their own
> problems on the road.

Your experience differs so greatly from my own.

Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign.
In fact, on the rare occasions where things go a little
awry and contentions arise between riders & drivers,
there is much introspection, consideration and discussion
among CM participants as to how to better handle things
in future.

Nevertheless, there are always some social write-offs
who ride their bikes as poorly, discourteously and
inconsiderately as they drive their cars.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[Frank Drackman]

"Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message

>
> I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
> 40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
> drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know people who
> have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
> why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't pay attention
> to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
> anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when the right of
> way actually belongs to someone else. They don't think traffic laws
> apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists create their own
> problems on the road.

I agree.

It is frustrating to see cyclists do silly things to piss off drivers. I
live close to where a bike route crosses a road. There is a stop sign that
a lot of cyclists ignore and I frequently watch the confrontations between
the riders and the drivers. Sometimes I see drivers playing chicken with
the cyclists who blow through the stop sign. Not good all around.

[Sniper8052@yahoo.co.uk]

On 27 Jul, 17:08, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:
> > In article <13ff3454-00e8-480b-bff9-7b40da6a9...@34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Ozark Bicycle <bicycleatel...@ozarkbicycleservice.com> writes:
> >> On Jul 27, 3:38 am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> >> <sniped for clarity>
>
> > Snipped for what?
>
> >> - on Critical Mass -
>
> >>> CM isn't a showcase about the good things about bicycles.
>
> >> BINGO!!!
>
> >> <remainder snipped>
>
> > Critical Mass is a showcase of the bad things about POV cars.
>
> You wish. CM is mostly a showcase of the arrrogance, stupidity and
> aggression of its participants.
>
> I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
> 40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
> drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know people who
> have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
> why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't pay attention
> to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
> anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when the right of
> way actually belongs to someone else. They don't think traffic laws
> apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists create their own
> problems on the road.

I would have to agree, however I am not such a veteran. Often I
wonder how some cyclists survive, that thing between the head and
shoulders, designed for moving the head around, hardly ever seems to
move on some...car drivers as well!!

Sniper8052

[Jym Dyer]

Tim McNamara writes:

> Here's the face of CM for the general public.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/27/hahn.car.bike.showdown.king

=v= Consider that about 300 CM rides happen every month on this
continent, and how rare that sort of incident is. So basically
what you're doing here is exemplarizing the unusual so as to
prop up your opinion.

=v= Also, the CNN angle doesn't make sense and it's clear (at
least to intelligent viewers) that there's more to the story.
And indeed there is:

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/last_nights_critical_mass_melee

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/i_literally_got_run_over

http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/the_driver_speaks

<_Jym_>

[Bill Davidson]

Tim McNamara wrote:
> Here's the face of CM for the general public.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/27/hahn.car.bike.showdown.king
>
> Productive, huh? Once again, cyclists as hooligans and drivers as
> law-abiding citizens.

What's law abiding about running over bicycles?

It was moron vs. moron.

[Tim McNamara]

tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:

> Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign. In fact, on
> the rare occasions where things go a little awry and contentions
> arise between riders & drivers, there is much introspection,
> consideration and discussion among CM participants as to how to
> better handle things in future.

Americans and Canadians tend to be different, in my experience.

I have friends who moved to Gabriola a not too long ago. Maybe I'll
get to see a Vancouver CM when I go visit them sometime.

[Tim McNamara]

"Frank Drackman" <frankdrack@yahoo.com> writes:

> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>
>>
>> I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike
>> over 40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences
>> with car drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know
>> people who have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them
>> ride- I know why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't
>> pay attention to what's going on around them, so they have to react
>> instead of anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when
>> the right of way actually belongs to someone else. They don't
>> think traffic laws apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists
>> create their own problems on the road.
>
> I agree.
>
> It is frustrating to see cyclists do silly things to piss off
> drivers. I live close to where a bike route crosses a road. There
> is a stop sign that a lot of cyclists ignore and I frequently watch
> the confrontations between the riders and the drivers. Sometimes I
> see drivers playing chicken with the cyclists who blow through the
> stop sign. Not good all around.

Especially for the cyclist, who is going to lose that confrontation.
I see a lot of cyclists every day who seem intent on thinning the gene
pool.

Not that I see a lot of law-abiding drivers, either. People in cars
seem every bit as likely to violate the law as people on bikes.

[Janet]

Frank Drackman wrote:
> "Tim McNamara" <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>
>> I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
>> 40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
>> drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know people who
>> have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
>> why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't pay attention
>> to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
>> anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when the right of
>> way actually belongs to someone else. They don't think traffic laws
>> apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists create their own
>> problems on the road.
>
> I agree.
>
> It is frustrating to see cyclists do silly things to piss off drivers. I
> live close to where a bike route crosses a road. There is a stop sign that
> a lot of cyclists ignore and I frequently watch the confrontations between
> the riders and the drivers. Sometimes I see drivers playing chicken with
> the cyclists who blow through the stop sign. Not good all around.
>
>
I too agree. There are some cyclist that just do stupid things to make
all cyclist look bad. There's a group (4-6 people) that ride in a pace
line, dressed like they are in the Tour de France (it's more than just
wearing cycling shorts/shirts for comfort) who routinely blow through a
red light at a busy intersection, making a right turn onto a busy
street. That intersection has a "no turn on red" sign because visibility
is not good (It's even hard to see large vehicles making a turn there,
which sometimes happens when drivers ignore the "no right on red" sign).
Besides blowing through the red light, they then have to swerve around
parked cars that cannot be seen until they are already around the
corner. One of these days they are going to get hit by a car going
through the green light and not expecting anyone entering the street
from that direction and then complain about bad drivers.

Janet

[Tom Keats]

In article <m28wvmygu2.fsf@bitstream.net>,
Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> writes:
> tkeats2005@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:
>
>> Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign. In fact, on
>> the rare occasions where things go a little awry and contentions
>> arise between riders & drivers, there is much introspection,
>> consideration and discussion among CM participants as to how to
>> better handle things in future.
>
> Americans and Canadians tend to be different, in my experience.
>
> I have friends who moved to Gabriola a not too long ago. Maybe I'll
> get to see a Vancouver CM when I go visit them sometime.

I hope you do get to come here to Vancouver, to just plain
enjoy riding here, not necessarily in our Critical Mass.

We have a beautiful riding environment here, and I thoroughly
appreciate it. It's a blessing to be here. We're not Utopia,
but we /are/ known as LotusLand. We have a thriving bicycling
populace, so many local car drivers (although not all) understand
what it's like to participate as traffic on a bicycle. It's not
perfect, but y'know what? We're getting there.

We did have a fairly recent Critical Mass where things /did/
go a little awry. Basically, a large influx of newbies who
didn't quite "get it" surprisingly showed up. Under normal
circumstances, the more experienced CM riders rise to the
need to take care of their fellow riders; to judiciously
cork when necessary, to take care of stragglers and keep the
ride together, and to diplomatically (in a range of degrees)
keep certain people with chips on their shoulders, from
turning the event into something negative and contentious.

But this time, the size of the ride caught people unawares,
and as a result it got segmented by traffic lights, and
not as self-governed as it should have been.

The matter was intensely discussed on our local VeloLove
Listserv, and subsequent but civil and polite measures
will be taken.

The next ride will be a beauty. So will September's
Equinox ride. And the Lantern Ride in October.

I like to think that people around the world aren't
so different. Living in Vancouver, I've gotten to
meet people from PRC, Hong Kong, Taiwan, The Punjab,
Iraq, Iran, UAE, Kenya, Mozambique, Viet Nam, Singapore,
Australia, New Zealand, Papua/New Guinea, Fiji, Uraguay,
Peru, Colombia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, The Ukraine,
Israel, Lebanon, South Africa, Samoa, Denmark, Germany,
Russia, Greece, South Carolina, Mongolia, Japan, Texas,
Italy, Sri Lanka, France, Borneo, Portugal, Norway,
The British Isles (including The Channel Islands,)
Finland, Chile, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Turkey, Newfoundland
(which has a more distinct & venerable culture than Quebec)
and a bunch of native, "aboriginal" (home-grown) people.

And y'know what? I've learned that people all around the
world are basically good. They care about you, and we care
about them. None of us wants to step on anybody's toes.

Humanity as whole is a big, loveable thing.
Nice people abound.

But nobody's big enough to hug us all at once
except You-Know-Who. And he refrains from doing so,
because he'd probably squeeze our heads off in
so doing. And then there'd be much blood-squirting
and fainting. Not a good thing.

It's good that we have a somewhat stand-off-ish
Sagalie Tyee.

It's also good that humanity is not /too/ loveably
huggable. That could be our demise. The Almighty
gave us flaws for our own self-preservation.
From Him, Herself.

I've gotta listen to Alice Cooper's Flush The Fashion,
now. + "Hey Stupid" + "Lost In America."

This is gonna be good!

And then I've gotta go back to work tomorrow morning.

Oh, well.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 27, 8:48*pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:
> tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:
> > Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign. *In fact, on
> > the rare occasions where things go a little awry and contentions
> > arise between riders & drivers, there is much introspection,
> > consideration and discussion among CM participants as to how to
> > better handle things in future.
>
> Americans and Canadians tend to be different, in my experience.

Also don't forget the cyclists hybernate over there.

Otherwise I don't see how their sensible policies like *healthcare for
all* translate into *bike facilities for all*.

[Jym Dyer]

>> Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign. In
>> fact, on the rare occasions where things go a little awry
>> and contentions arise between riders & drivers, there is
>> much introspection, consideration and discussion among CM
>> participants as to how to better handle things in future.

> Americans and Canadians tend to be different, in my experience.

=v= This is not an American/Canadian thing. The same is true of
American CMs, in my experience. And I've experience quite a few
of them at this point. (That said, the Vancouver CM is one of
my favorites. See this lovely blog entry and photoset:

http://lipmagazine.org/ccarlsson/archives/2008/06/thank_you_corke.html

By Chris Carlsson, one of the originators of the CM concept!)
<_Jym_>

[KingOfTheApes]

Originally Posted by socalboomer
The only problem I see with this is that most of those drivers ARE law-
abiding citizens (okay, we all speed. . .) so using this quote would
imply that we want cyclists to be seen as law-abiding citizens and
drivers as hooligans - and that's not legitimate.

"Why can't we all just get along" - abused, overused, but still. . .
the vast majority of drivers aren't bad toward us, we're focusing on
the bad ones; just as the bad riders amongst us are the ones that are
picked out as bad and used to spread the blame on all the rest of us.

Before we start working on them, I think we need to clean our own
house. CM and other scofflaws give drivers the excuse to continue to
be aggravated against us.

***

Yes I believe that we can all get along. But drivers are neither evil
nor the good guys of the movies. Actually the good guys are the
cyclists because they are doing something for the environment and are
not feeding the war.

Speeding in itself is less of the problem. In Germany drivers speed
the most and cyclists have the most bike facilities outside of
Holland. The real problem is reckless drivers, oversized vehicles, and
the lack of lane discipline. If they are speeding on the right lane,
the cyclists are most at risk.

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> ...
> But nobody's big enough to hug us all at once
> except You-Know-Who....

Eddy Merckx!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 27, 11:11*pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <m28wvmygu2....@bitstream.net>,
> * * * * Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> writes:
>
> > tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) writes:
>
> >> Here in Vancouver BC, Critical Mass is quite benign. *In fact, on
> >> the rare occasions where things go a little awry and contentions
> >> arise between riders & drivers, there is much introspection,
> >> consideration and discussion among CM participants as to how to
> >> better handle things in future.
>
> > Americans and Canadians tend to be different, in my experience.
>
> > I have friends who moved to Gabriola a not too long ago. *Maybe I'll
> > get to see a Vancouver CM when I go visit them sometime.
>
> I hope you do get to come here to Vancouver, to just plain
> enjoy riding here, not necessarily in our Critical Mass.
>
> We have a beautiful riding environment here, and I thoroughly
> appreciate it. *It's a blessing to be here. *We're not Utopia,
> but we /are/ known as LotusLand. *We have a thriving bicycling
> populace, so many local car drivers (although not all) understand
> what it's like to participate as traffic on a bicycle. *It's not
> perfect, but y'know what? *We're getting there.
>
> We did have a fairly recent Critical Mass where things /did/
> go a little awry. *Basically, a large influx of newbies who
> didn't quite "get it" surprisingly showed up. *Under normal
> circumstances, the more experienced CM riders rise to the
> need to take care of their fellow riders; to judiciously
> cork when necessary, to take care of stragglers and keep the
> ride together, and to diplomatically (in a range of degrees)
> keep certain people with chips on their shoulders, from
> turning the event into something negative and contentious.
>
> But this time, the size of the ride caught people unawares,
> and as a result it got segmented by traffic lights, and
> not as self-governed as it should have been.
>
> The matter was intensely discussed on our local VeloLove
> Listserv, and subsequent but civil and polite measures
> will be taken.
>
> The next ride will be a beauty. *So will September's
> Equinox ride. *And the Lantern Ride in October.
>
> I like to think that people around the world aren't
> so different. *Living in Vancouver, I've gotten to
> meet people from PRC, Hong Kong, Taiwan, The Punjab,
> Iraq, Iran, UAE, Kenya, Mozambique, Viet Nam, Singapore,
> Australia, New Zealand, Papua/New Guinea, Fiji, Uraguay,
> Peru, Colombia, Romania, Hungary, Poland, The Ukraine,
> Israel, Lebanon, South Africa, Samoa, Denmark, Germany,
> Russia, Greece, South Carolina, Mongolia, Japan, Texas,
> Italy, Sri Lanka, France, Borneo, Portugal, Norway,
> The British Isles (including The Channel Islands,)
> Finland, Chile, Afghanistan, Cyprus, Turkey, Newfoundland
> (which has a more distinct & venerable culture than Quebec)
> and a bunch of native, "aboriginal" (home-grown) people.
>
> And y'know what? *I've learned that people all around the
> world are basically good. *They care about you, and we care
> about them. *None of us wants to step on anybody's toes.

Have you had many close encounters with "the beast"? I mean those SUV
drivers who drive recklessly and bully others?

But, like you say, they may be basically good --once you remove the
SUV and the cell phone. ;)

[KingOfTheApes]

Originally Posted by cudak888
Exactly - but as I've stated before, it's most obvious that cyclists
that wish to be "law abiding" can't even agree upon anything. Look at
this forum. Human nature.

No hope for it unless some folks are either ready to either swallow
their pride, compromise, or disagree in a civilized fashion for once.

-Kurt

***

If you are talking about human nature, you must be talking about the
"monkey within." Hey, that's what the scientists say. So we must
address them with colorful activities, T-shirts, bananas and anything
that makes the monkey happy. And, like I said before, we must promote
biking with sexy monkeys, I mean sexy ladies.

Coming out of the cage is very important for them too!

[James Thomson]

"Tom Sherman" <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> a écrit:

> Tom Keats wrote:

>> But nobody's big enough to hug us all at once
>> except You-Know-Who....

> Eddy Merckx!

I thought he meant Chalo...

James Thomson

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <ac9490e5-7b6e-48b9-858f-ea7a1a67bb37@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> KingOfTheApes <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> writes:
>> On Jul 26, 4:18 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
>>>>> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
>>>>> example, would have announced their cause.
>>> Ersatz uniforms, eh? **** that noise.
>>> And you can shove that concept up your ass,
>>> with vigour. I'm hereby suspecting you of
>>> being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
>>> trying to establish a bundt.
>>>
>>> Phf**** you.
>>>
>> No, I'm not a Nazi, I'm not a Marxist or Maoist. I'm for organizing
>> the monkeys, so they have a better chance of success.
>
> That's what they all say....
>
Can monkeys goose step?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 28, 12:25*am, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> In article <ac9490e5-7b6e-48b9-858f-ea7a1a67b...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups..com>,
> * * * * KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > On Jul 26, 4:18*pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
> >> >> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
> >> >> example, would have announced their cause.
>
> >> Ersatz uniforms, eh? ***** that noise.
> >> And you can shove that concept up your ass,
> >> with vigour. *I'm hereby suspecting you of
> >> being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
> >> trying to establish a bundt.
>
> >> Phf**** you.
>
> > No, I'm not a Nazi, I'm not a Marxist or Maoist. I'm for organizing
> > the monkeys, so they have a better chance of success.
>
> That's what they all say.
>
> You have shown your colours, and you can't retract them.
>
> Maybe you should invest in an ant farm or an aquarium.
>
> Organize those.
>
> Maybe pace around them with a swagger-stick and a Mauser
> machine pistol and a dour demeanour.
>

Listen, I'm not even a Republicat!

It has nothing to do with left of right, but plain jungle strategy.
Get together and do a coordinated bike campaign, stating clear goals
and sticking mostly to the rules set up by the lion.

Yes, we have to learn from the ants in that regard. There's even a
science about it... "Sociobiology."

Well, these ants just had it... ;)

EVOLVE OR...

Once upon a time lived a race of dinosaurs whose violence and appetite
alarmed everybody... One day a Little Ant, tired of feeling stepped
upon, and worried about her cooperative enterprise, came up to the
Americanus Raptor --the biggest dinosaur of them all-- and asked: "Why
you eat and eat everything in your path? Why don't you slim down? Why
can't we little animals at least have our own way? You can't deny
evolution, you know." Then the dinosaur, blowing the Little Ant away,
shouted: "Bigger is better, so get lost!"

And it is said that the Little Ant, later, gathered the whole
cooperative and said: "Comrades, our world is being threatened by the
dinosaurs, so..." And at that precise moment the Earth was hit by a
big ball of fire, destroying all but the small animals...

Moral: "It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the
most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change." -Charles
Darwin

[Tom Keats]

In article <g6jjcr$vse$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
Tom Sherman <sunsetss0003@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> writes:
> Tom Keats wrote:
>> In article <ac9490e5-7b6e-48b9-858f-ea7a1a67bb37@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>> KingOfTheApes <comandante.banana@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> On Jul 26, 4:18 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>>
>>>>>> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
>>>>>> example, would have announced their cause.
>>>> Ersatz uniforms, eh? **** that noise.
>>>> And you can shove that concept up your ass,
>>>> with vigour. I'm hereby suspecting you of
>>>> being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
>>>> trying to establish a bundt.
>>>>
>>>> Phf**** you.
>>>>
>>> No, I'm not a Nazi, I'm not a Marxist or Maoist. I'm for organizing
>>> the monkeys, so they have a better chance of success.
>>
>> That's what they all say....
>>
> Can monkeys goose step?






Yes.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 28, 12:53*am, Tom Sherman <sunsetss0...@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
wrote:
> Tom Keats wrote:
> > In article <ac9490e5-7b6e-48b9-858f-ea7a1a67b...@l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> > * *KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> writes:
> >> On Jul 26, 4:18 pm, tkeats2...@hotmail.com (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> >>>>> First of all, nobody knew what they were up to. Some T-shirts, for
> >>>>> example, would have announced their cause.
> >>> Ersatz uniforms, eh? ***** that noise.
> >>> And you can shove that concept up your ass,
> >>> with vigour. *I'm hereby suspecting you of
> >>> being a Nazi with ulterior motives, and
> >>> trying to establish a bundt.
>
> >>> Phf**** you.
>
> >> No, I'm not a Nazi, I'm not a Marxist or Maoist. I'm for organizing
> >> the monkeys, so they have a better chance of success.
>
> > That's what they all say....
>
> Can monkeys goose step?
>

No, they lack the discipline. But they can be put through boot camp
and be forced into wars...

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/f/f6/Armed_monkeys.jpg

Naturally though they love to eat banana and play with other
monkeys. ;)

[soup]

KingOfTheApes wrote:

> http://danielmejia.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/the-3-monkeys.jpg
>
Do I get extra points for pointing out those aren't monkeys?
Would have thought someone called "KingOfTheApes" would know the
difference between Monkeys and Apes.

--
'S rioghal mo dhream
www.cheesesoup.myby.co.uk

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 28, 12:43 pm, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:

> =v= This is not an American/Canadian thing. The same is true of
> American CMs, in my experience. And I've experience quite a few
> of them at this point. (That said, the Vancouver CM is one of
> my favorites. See this lovely blog entry and photoset:
>
> http://lipmagazine.org/ccarlsson/archives/2008/06/thank_you_corke.html

Yes, we are very different. But what we need is an invasion of a large
crowd like that to cross into our cities and towns from the North.
Expect tough resistance in the South though. ;)

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 28, 12:47*pm, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:
> Tim McNamara writes:
> > Here's the face of CM for the general public. *
>
> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/27/hahn.car.bike.showdown...
>
> =v= Consider that about 300 CM rides happen every month on this
> continent, and how rare that sort of incident is. *So basically
> what you're doing here is exemplarizing the unusual so as to
> prop up your opinion.
>
> =v= Also, the CNN angle doesn't make sense and it's clear (at
> least to intelligent viewers) that there's more to the story.
> And indeed there is:
>
> http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/last_nights_critical_mass_melee
>
> http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/i_literally_got_run_over
>
> http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/the_driver_speaks
>
> * * <_Jym_>

This is an interesting commet from your links...

(which you probably didn't care to read)

"Critical Mass started in what, 1992 or so? In 16 years, has it
actually accomplished anything? More bike lanes? Improved bike lanes?
Bike-only streets? Bike-only days on major arterials? Anything?"

[Dane Buson]

In rec.bicycles.misc Jym Dyer <jym@econet.org> wrote:
> Tim McNamara writes:
>
>> Here's the face of CM for the general public.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/07/27/hahn.car.bike.showdown.king
>
> =v= Consider that about 300 CM rides happen every month on this
> continent, and how rare that sort of incident is. So basically
> what you're doing here is exemplarizing the unusual so as to
> prop up your opinion.
>
> =v= Also, the CNN angle doesn't make sense and it's clear (at
> least to intelligent viewers) that there's more to the story.
> And indeed there is:
>
> http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/last_nights_critical_mass_melee
>
> http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/i_literally_got_run_over
>
> http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/07/the_driver_speaks

I know quite a few people who were nearby (but not actually involved)
when this happened last Friday. There's a remarkable amount of
consistency that the driver flipped out first and ran people over. Then
the imbeciles on bikes starting attacking the car [1][2]. In an ideal
world they would have got the license plate number and description of
everyone involved and all started calling 911 instead.

Seattle critical mass is usually a very relaxed affair. All the people
I've seen corking have been very friendly and non-confrontational. That
said, I'm sure there are asshats involved now and again.

The Seattle PD has previously said they'd rather mass corked and flowed
through in a single portion because it *is* less disruptive to traffic.
They'd rather CM finished up downtown reasonably quickly and went on
their way.

[1] Which I obviously do not condone.
[2] And someone punched the driver as well.

--
Dane Buson - nn07tp08@unixbigots.org
If Beethoven's Seventh Symphony is not by some means abridged, it will soon
fall into disuse.
-- Philip Hale, Boston music critic, 1837

[Jym Dyer]

[Removed r.b.rides from this thread as this is off-topic for it.]

> This is an interesting commet from your links...
> "Critical Mass started in what, 1992 or so? In 16 years, has
> it actually accomplished anything? More bike lanes? Improved
> bike lanes? Bike-only streets? Bike-only days on major
> arterials? Anything?"

=v= Critical Mass has accomplished, or at least contributed
heavily towards, all of that and more.
<_Jym_>

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 28, 8:05*pm, BIG ONE <telavers...@****you.co.uk> wrote:

> > My friend, you don't about the things of the jungle. There's a
> > principle called "safety in numbers." I was alone on that road I would
> > be crushed with no pity.
>
> oh that would be a pity ;¬)
>
> but i imagine that was intended to be a conditional sentence ... with
> an 'if'
> but _if_ you had been riding you would not have been alone,
> because you would have been part of the mass
> - which sounds to me like it was going the right route for once.
> perhaps you'll be able to ride on that jungle path next month

There's a couple of omissions there, but still clearly understood. If
I had been in that rally, I would also feed the beast, making it look
good. Quoted from above...

"cyclists as hooligans and drivers as law-abiding citizens."

>
> > I don't belong with the wild
> > monkeys. I have my sympathies for Anarchists, but I don't like to
> > waste my time and perhaps life.
>
> I have similar sympathies, but i like to waste my time ... which is
> why I am on usenet,
> you on the other hand are on usenet for another reason?

Perhaps we belong to the Third Option. Not to be with the cagers or
with the wild monkeys. Organization is key, brains is survival.
Stupidity is not rewarded in the jungle. ;)

>
>
>
> > > > First of all, nobody knew what they were up to.
>
> > > how do you know this ... get off the bus & interview folk did you?
>
> > If I wasn't involved in the revolution, I'd have thought they were abunchoftouristsfromHollandlost on our Darwinistic roads.
> <snip>
> > Buses are in the revolution, dummy.
>
> yea, on the wrong side - along with WVM & taxis

Hey, why not. Bicycles are not *the* solution, just part of it. Buses
and good old-fashioned legs are too. Actually bikes and buses are used
together for greater effectiveness.

>
> > "Hey, if you ride public transportation to save the environment, it's
> > time to be proud of it. Show the selfish drivers of the Stupid
> > Unnecessary Vehicles that you are bigger than them."
>
> ok ... but that is probably off topic on cycling groups,
> a lot of my cycling is unnecessary by any standards
> & as I could actually walk everywhere I go
> are you saying my bikes are unnecessay vehicles?
> well I'm a bit upset at that.
> but anyhow I feel that a bike is a better solution
> than the public transport is to your being in the wrong place

You know what I like about the jungle metaphor? In the jungle
EVERYTHING IS RELATED and buses and bikes are symbiotic. Yes, I do
prefer the bike if it comes to freedom of mobility and zero emissions,
but I still use the bus racks to get to other places.

>
> <snip>
>
> > Wild monkeys are good for the lion. He makes the point to the sheep
> > that they need "peace and safety" from the "dangerous apes" out there.
> > And you know the sheep need order and leaders. ;)
>
> > What we need to organize the free monkeys (those already outside the
> > cages and riding bikes and buses) to show THE WAY to the rest of the
> > crowd. Remember, MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO.
>
> can't tell them what to do in my book ... & if you try we'll just
> ignore you

Hey, are you speaking for all? There are already many ignoring me, but
it's too bad for them because I'm a monkey screaming loud for the
freedom to ride a bike anywhere and anytime. But I don't care, I love
making noise and making fun of the things happening in the jungle.

BEWARE OF THE LION! ;)

[KingOfTheApes]

(my answer below)

Originally Posted by cudak888

I'm not a bicycling politician. A fellow would have to be absolutely
out of his mind to become any form of advocate of cycling. Not because
of the motorists either.

I've learned well enough that absolutely nothing will please even a
small portion of the cycling community, and for that matter, even
those that have campaigned for similar ideas before will detest you
for the fact that it differs in some remotely minute way from their
idea.

I'm for sharrows myself, for most of the streets in Miami (that are
not main arteries) are already of width that legally allow for full
control of the lane. It'd be a reasonably inexpensive way to start out
- just spray down the signage on the road. Motorists will see it,
cyclists too. Works beautifully to point out that cyclists have the
right to the road, and it requires no specific street modifications
other then the paint.

....but I know damn well that someone will have an axe to grind about
that, so I don't advocate it. I'm not about to step into the murk of a
community that holds to their individual ideas with the aggressiveness
of crazed religious zealots.

Personally, I believe cyclists themselves are no better then cagers in
this respect. Can't agree with your own kind? Well, then you aren't
going to get anywhere.

That said, do you honestly think I'd be stupid enough to actively,
seriously try local advocacy? Hoo boy, forget it. I'll continue to
ride on my 9' streets where there aren't any bike lanes and I can
legally use whatever part of the lane I can, thank you.

If they take these lanes away from me, well - I'll stop bicycling, and
let the "advocates" laugh themselves silly.

-Kurt

***

Those minor streets won't get anywhere fast enough. They get me to the
supermarket 1 mile away, but not most other places.

Hey, I complete relate to your concerns, and yet I see room for change
and hope. And the hope is not the cyclists...

And here I go into revolutionary rhetoric: THE HOPE LIES IN THE
PROLES!

Yeah, I don't want to sound like Orwell, but the hope is those poor
people who can hardly afford the cage (the car, insurance and gas),
and would rather ride a bike. Also those who currently ride sidewalks
because the streets are no-man's land. They'll be glad to see some
sort of bike lanes or traffic control, particularly reducing speeds on
the right lane.

So I'm reaching out to the proles with the best and most fun flyers/t-
shirts until we organize some civilized rides. Yep, we can't afford to
be uncivilized as that would make the beast look civilized.

I'm quoting here from someone... CM enforces the ideas of "cyclists as
hooligans and drivers as law-abiding citizens."

Yep, it may sound a bit political, but while our leaders (elected by
the ignorant sheep) keep talking about Iraq and Cuba, we won't have
the right issues on the table, ie. bike facilities.

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 30, 2:47 am, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:
> [Removed r.b.rides from this thread as this is off-topic for it.]
>
> > This is an interesting commet from your links...
> > "Critical Mass started in what, 1992 or so? In 16 years, has
> > it actually accomplished anything? More bike lanes? Improved
> > bike lanes? Bike-only streets? Bike-only days on major
> > arterials? Anything?"
>
> =v= Critical Mass has accomplished, or at least contributed
> heavily towards, all of that and more.
> <_Jym_>

Please cite examples.

[KingOfTheApes]

On Jul 30, 7:17*am, "Sniper8...@yahoo.co.uk" <Sniper8...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

> > I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
> > 40 years. *As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
> > drivers have been extremely few and far between. *I know people who
> > have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
> > why. *They ride their bikes like assholes. *They don't pay attention
> > to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
> > anticipating. * They expect to have the right of way when the right of
> > way actually belongs to someone else. *They don't think traffic laws
> > apply to them. *Etc. *Most of the time, cyclists create their own
> > problems on the road.
>
> I would have to agree, however I am not such a veteran. *Often I
> wonder how some cyclists survive, that thing between the head and
> shoulders, designed for moving the head around, hardly ever seems to
> move on some...car drivers as well!!
>
> Sniper8052- Hide quoted text -

You have a point there. In the case of drivers it's ARROGANCE, and in
the case of cyclists it's just PLAIN STUPIDITY.

[BIG ONE]

On Jul 30, 2:41*pm, KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 30, 2:47 am, Jym Dyer <j...@econet.org> wrote:
>
> > [Removed r.b.rides from this thread as this is off-topic for it.]
>
> > > This is an interesting commet from your links...
> > > "Critical Mass started in what, 1992 or so? In 16 years, has
> > > it actually accomplished anything? More bike lanes? Improved
> > > bike lanes? *Bike-only streets? Bike-only days on major
> > > arterials? Anything?"
>
> > =v= Critical Mass has accomplished, or at least contributed
> > heavily towards, all of that and more.
> > * * <_Jym_>
>
> Please cite examples.

I'm not going to do Jym's job (who has probably gone now anyway)
but...
I could point to a lot of pictures of smiling people - & those smiles
are a direct result of CM
if that isn't evidence of CM accomplishing _more_ than you are asking
from it I'll be surprised.

[Sniper8052@yahoo.co.uk]

On 30 Jul, 14:43, KingOfTheApes <comandante.ban...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 30, 7:17 am, "Sniper8...@yahoo.co.uk" <Sniper8...@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > I ride my bike 5,000-7,000 miles a year and have been riding bike over
> > > 40 years. As a percentage of riding time my bad experiences with car
> > > drivers have been extremely few and far between. I know people who
> > > have frequent problems with drivers and- watching them ride- I know
> > > why. They ride their bikes like assholes. They don't pay attention
> > > to what's going on around them, so they have to react instead of
> > > anticipating. They expect to have the right of way when the right of
> > > way actually belongs to someone else. They don't think traffic laws
> > > apply to them. Etc. Most of the time, cyclists create their own
> > > problems on the road.
>
> > I would have to agree, however I am not such a veteran. Often I
> > wonder how some cyclists survive, that thing between the head and
> > shoulders, designed for moving the head around, hardly ever seems to
> > move on some...car drivers as well!!
>
> > Sniper8052- Hide quoted text -
>
> You have a point there. In the case of drivers it's ARROGANCE, and in
> the case of cyclists it's just PLAIN STUPIDITY.

:)

[Peter Cole]

Dane Buson wrote:

> I know quite a few people who were nearby (but not actually involved)
> when this happened last Friday. There's a remarkable amount of
> consistency that the driver flipped out first and ran people over. Then
> the imbeciles on bikes starting attacking the car [1][2]. In an ideal
> world they would have got the license plate number and description of
> everyone involved and all started calling 911 instead.

"Mark says he actually used to be a bike commuter when he lived in
Seattle a few years ago. “I sympathize with [cyclists’] cause. I ride
bikes too. I’m a liberal hippie democrat,” he says, adding “I’m gay, the
person with me was a lesbian and we were a attacked by eco-terrorists.
It’s the most Seattle thing that could have happened.""

"Eco-terrorists"! I loved that.


But then --

“What I did was probably a mistake,” he says. “I want to apologize to
[the cyclists]. I didn’t mean for it to happen. It was terrifying for
me. I was pissed off, I overreacted, I didn’t pay attention to what I
was doing and I’m sorry for it.”

Gay, hippie, liberals can also be road-raging jerks (and pandering ones,
too). Is eco-terrorist now a hippie, liberal term? A "gay" thing? Sounds
pretty Faux News to me.

[Claire Petersky]

"Dane Buson" <dane@unseen.edu> wrote in message
news:k067m5-nlo.ln1@curare.zuvembi.homelinux.org...

> There's a remarkable amount of
> consistency that the driver flipped out first and ran people over. Then
> the imbeciles on bikes starting attacking the car [1][2]. In an ideal
> world they would have got the license plate number and description of
> everyone involved and all started calling 911 instead.

I wasn't there, so I can't speak to this directly. But generally, I've been
hearing from other cyclists this summer that SPD will not respond when
victims of crimes are on bikes. The latest example of this is that commuters
have been pelted with rocks as they come out of the I-90 bike tunnel. When
cyclists call 911, the police do not show up. Meanwhile, some kids toss
rocks off of an overpass onto motorists on I-5, and there's an immediate law
enforcement presence and an article in the Seattle Times.

If the cyclists on CM believed that law enforcement would have responded
quickly to the guy running over the people on bikes, would they have been so
quick to engage in vigilante action? It doesn't excuse bad behavior
(particularly, thwacking the guy on the head with a U-lock - damn). But it
makes the bad behavior to my mind, more understandable if not justifiable,
and is information lacking in the mainstream reportage on the incident.

--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
http://www.bicyclemeditations.org/
See the books I've set free at: http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

[Peter Cole]

Janet wrote:

> I too agree. There are some cyclist that just do stupid things to make
> all cyclist look bad. There's a group (4-6 people) that ride in a pace
> line, dressed like they are in the Tour de France (it's more than just
> wearing cycling shorts/shirts for comfort)

Who cares what they wear? The fashion police?

> who routinely blow through a
> red light at a busy intersection, making a right turn onto a busy
> street. That intersection has a "no turn on red" sign because visibility
> is not good (It's even hard to see large vehicles making a turn there,
> which sometimes happens when drivers ignore the "no right on red" sign).

Drivers ignore ROR bans all the time. They seem unconcerned that they
are ruining the image of drivers.

I've never seen a ROR situation that would require (functionally) a bike
to stop. Since (through-traveling) motorists don't have any idea of
whether ROR is allowed or not (unless they are familiar with the cross
street), they should expect right-turning traffic, legal or not.

> Besides blowing through the red light, they then have to swerve around
> parked cars that cannot be seen until they are already around the
> corner. One of these days they are going to get hit by a car going
> through the green light and not expecting anyone entering the street
> from that direction and then complain about bad drivers.

So what? Most bicycle accidents are single vehicle (the bike) usually
because the cyclist does something stupid. If you're really concerned
about cyclists hurting themselves, work on that.

ROR restrictions don't make a lot of sense for cyclists, they're (we're)
much smaller and more agile than MV's. The real right turn threats are
getting "hooked" by a driver that fails to signal or crushed by a truck
or bus. I go when it's safe, and don't when it's not. I don't rely on
MV-oriented restrictions to protect my safety, they won't. I'm also not
going to wait behind a long line of cars. If I'm going to do that, I
might as well drive, too. Motorists ruin the road for cycling,
especially at rush hour. If they were courteous, they'd make a bigger
effort to just get out of the way. On top of that, they're loud, smell
bad, and spew tons of heat -- much ruder than the ugliest spandex outfits.

[Jym Dyer]

=v= Well, overall this is a pleasantly surprising outcome.
<_Jym_>

http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=78011

Critical Mass cyclist suspects not charged
By ERIN COVEY
710 KIRO | 31-Jul-2008

Two cyclists arrested on suspicion of malicious mischief after
an altercation that erupted during a Critical Mass cycling event
Friday, July 25th are at this time not facing formal charges by
the state.

Larry Hildes, the attorney representing cyclist David Maxwell,
one of the men allegedly involved in the confrontation, says
Wednesday's move in court isn't unusual.

Defense attorney Hildes hopes the investigation proves that the
cyclists were reacting to an aggressive driver, "Our position
is that the driver is the one that should have been charged.
He is extremely lucky that he didn't kill several people."

Suspect David Maxwell hopes this incident will actually
highlight cyclists' plight on the roads, "When I ride to work
and from work everyday I'm almost run over by cars everyday.
Critical Mass, to me, is one of the best days of the month,
where I can feel completely safe. I don't have to worry about
someone expressing road rage toward me, someone trying to hit
me in their car. I'm here with three or four hundred people.
I can be in the middle of a crowd and it's the one time I can
be on the road without a threat to my life."

This case is prompting community-wide debate. The question:
Can cyclists and motorists coexist in a peaceful manner?

One of the largest cycling groups, the Cascade Bicycle Club,
believes both sides reacted inappropriately. "We do support a
community of bicyclists that want to make their voice heard,
and want to be visible, so long as it doesn't cause the kind
of situations it caused on Friday night," says David Hiller of
the Cascade Bicycle Club. The club is calling for a community
meeting to promote safe and positive riding.

Police Spokesman Mark Jamieson, who says Critical Mass has been
riding for years without incident, says no definite increase
in police presence has been called for at this time, but that
procedures for handling all events of this kind are being
evaluated. "It is a little premature to talk about what will
happen from this point forward. But the commanders in the
department are certainly looking at revisiting any changes to
how we approach, not only this particular organization, but any
similar type of demonstrations, protests in the future," says
Jamieson.

[nully]

"Peter Cole" <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:P5lkk.641$rb5.277@trnddc04...
> Janet wrote:
>
>> I too agree. There are some cyclist that just do stupid things to make
>> all cyclist look bad. There's a group (4-6 people) that ride in a pace
>> line, dressed like they are in the Tour de France (it's more than just
>> wearing cycling shorts/shirts for comfort)
>
> Who cares what they wear? The fashion police?
>
>> who routinely blow through a red light at a busy intersection, making a
>> right turn onto a busy street. That intersection has a "no turn on red"
>> sign because visibility is not good (It's even hard to see large vehicles
>> making a turn there, which sometimes happens when drivers ignore the "no
>> right on red" sign).
>
> Drivers ignore ROR bans all the time. They seem unconcerned that they are
> ruining the image of drivers.
>
> I've never seen a ROR situation that would require (functionally) a bike
> to stop. Since (through-traveling) motorists don't have any idea of
> whether ROR is allowed or not (unless they are familiar with the cross
> street), they should expect right-turning traffic, legal or not.
>
>> Besides blowing through the red light, they then have to swerve around
>> parked cars that cannot be seen until they are already around the corner.
>> One of these days they are going to get hit by a car going through the
>> green light and not expecting anyone entering the street from that
>> direction and then complain about bad drivers.
>
> So what? Most bicycle accidents are single vehicle (the bike) usually
> because the cyclist does something stupid. If you're really concerned
> about cyclists hurting themselves, work on that.
>
> ROR restrictions don't make a lot of sense for cyclists, they're (we're)
> much smaller and more agile than MV's. The real right turn threats are
> getting "hooked" by a driver that fails to signal or crushed by a truck or
> bus. I go when it's safe, and don't when it's not. I don't rely on
> MV-oriented restrictions to protect my safety, they won't. I'm also not
> going to wait behind a long line of cars. If I'm going to do that, I might
> as well drive, too. Motorists ruin the road for cycling, especially at
> rush hour. If they were courteous, they'd make a bigger effort to just get
> out of the way. On top of that, they're loud, smell bad, and spew tons of
> heat -- much ruder than the ugliest spandex outfits.

Or, interpreted:
"I ride a bike so I'll ignore the law and feel sanctimonious while doing
it".

[Janet]

Peter Cole wrote:
> Janet wrote:
>
>> I too agree. There are some cyclist that just do stupid things to make
>> all cyclist look bad. There's a group (4-6 people) that ride in a pace
>> line, dressed like they are in the Tour de France (it's more than just
>> wearing cycling shorts/shirts for comfort)
>
> Who cares what they wear? The fashion police?

Because people that don't ride ASSUME That people dressed like
Tour-de-France wannabe's KNOW the CORRECT way for cyclists to ride on
the road. When they do stupid things, they make it bad for the rest of us.

>
>> who routinely blow through a red light at a busy intersection, making
>> a right turn onto a busy street. That intersection has a "no turn on
>> red" sign because visibility is not good (It's even hard to see large
>> vehicles making a turn there, which sometimes happens when drivers
>> ignore the "no right on red" sign).
>
> Drivers ignore ROR bans all the time. They seem unconcerned that they
> are ruining the image of drivers.
>
> I've never seen a ROR situation that would require (functionally) a bike
> to stop. Since (through-traveling) motorists don't have any idea of
> whether ROR is allowed or not (unless they are familiar with the cross
> street), they should expect right-turning traffic, legal or not.

READ my post - VISIBILITY is BAD. THERE are CAR-CAR accidents because
whatever is blowing through the red light CANNOT be seen until it's too
late. The people with the GREEN LIGHT have the RIGHT OF WAY and it's the
RESPONSIBILITY of the people (REGARDLESS of WHAT their vehicle of choice
is) to STOP AT THE RED LIGHT!

>
>> Besides blowing through the red light, they then have to swerve around
>> parked cars that cannot be seen until they are already around the
>> corner. One of these days they are going to get hit by a car going
>> through the green light and not expecting anyone entering the street
>> from that direction and then complain about bad drivers.
>
> So what? Most bicycle accidents are single vehicle (the bike) usually
> because the cyclist does something stupid. If you're really concerned
> about cyclists hurting themselves, work on that.
>
> ROR restrictions don't make a lot of sense for cyclists, they're (we're)
> much smaller and more agile than MV's. The real right turn threats are
> getting "hooked" by a driver that fails to signal or crushed by a truck
> or bus. I go when it's safe, and don't when it's not. I don't rely on
> MV-oriented restrictions to protect my safety, they won't. I'm also not
> going to wait behind a long line of cars. If I'm going to do that, I
> might as well drive, too. Motorists ruin the road for cycling,
> especially at rush hour. If they were courteous, they'd make a bigger
> effort to just get out of the way. On top of that, they're loud, smell
> bad, and spew tons of heat -- much ruder than the ugliest spandex outfits.

[Tom Sherman]

Peter Cole wrote:
> Janet wrote:
>
>> I too agree. There are some cyclist that just do stupid things to make
>> all cyclist look bad. There's a group (4-6 people) that ride in a pace
>> line, dressed like they are in the Tour de France (it's more than just
>> wearing cycling shorts/shirts for comfort)
>
> Who cares what they wear?...

FABRIZIO MAZZOLENI cares!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

[Peter Cole]

nully wrote:
> "Peter Cole" <peter_cole@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:P5lkk.641$rb5.277@trnddc04...
>> Janet wrote:
>>
>>> I too agree. There are some cyclist that just do stupid things to make
>>> all cyclist look bad. There's a group (4-6 people) that ride in a pace
>>> line, dressed like they are in the Tour de France (it's more than just
>>> wearing cycling shorts/shirts for comfort)
>> Who cares what they wear? The fashion police?
>>
>>> who routinely blow through a red light at a busy intersection, making a
>>> right turn onto a busy street. That intersection has a "no turn on red"
>>> sign because visibility is not good (It's even hard to see large vehicles
>>> making a turn there, which sometimes happens when drivers ignore the "no
>>> right on red" sign).
>> Drivers ignore ROR bans all the time. They seem unconcerned that they are
>> ruining the image of drivers.
>>
>> I've never seen a ROR situation that would require (functionally) a bike
>> to stop. Since (through-traveling) motorists don't have any idea of
>> whether ROR is allowed or not (unless they are familiar with the cross
>> street), they should expect right-turning traffic, legal or not.
>>
>>> Besides blowing through the red light, they then have to swerve around
>>> parked cars that cannot be seen until they are already around the corner.
>>> One of these days they are going to get hit by a car going through the
>>> green light and not expecting anyone entering the street from that
>>> direction and then complain about bad drivers.
>> So what? Most bicycle accidents are single vehicle (the bike) usually
>> because the cyclist does something stupid. If you're really concerned
>> about cyclists hurting themselves, work on that.
>>
>> ROR restrictions don't make a lot of sense for cyclists, they're (we're)
>> much smaller and more agile than MV's. The real right turn threats are
>> getting "hooked" by a driver that fails to signal or crushed by a truck or
>> bus. I go when it's safe, and don't when it's not. I don't rely on
>> MV-oriented restrictions to protect my safety, they won't. I'm also not
>> going to wait behind a long line of cars. If I'm going to do that, I might
>> as well drive, too. Motorists ruin the road for cycling, especially at
>> rush hour. If they were courteous, they'd make a bigger effort to just get
>> out of the way. On top of that, they're loud, smell bad, and spew tons of
>> heat -- much ruder than the ugliest spandex outfits.
>
> Or, interpreted:
> "I ride a bike so I'll ignore the law and feel sanctimonious while doing
> it".
>
>
>

Pithy.

[Tom Keats]

In article <Z8rkk.90030$wd5.73820@newsfe17.ams2>,
"nully" <nully@nully.nully> writes:

>> ROR restrictions don't make a lot of sense for cyclists, they're (we're)
>> much smaller and more agile than MV's. The real right turn threats are
>> getting "hooked" by a driver that fails to signal or crushed by a truck or
>> bus. I go when it's safe, and don't when it's not. I don't rely on
>> MV-oriented restrictions to protect my safety, they won't. I'm also not
>> going to wait behind a long line of cars. If I'm going to do that, I might
>> as well drive, too. Motorists ruin the road for cycling, especially at
>> rush hour. If they were courteous, they'd make a bigger effort to just get
>> out of the way. On top of that, they're loud, smell bad, and spew tons of
>> heat -- much ruder than the ugliest spandex outfits.
>
> Or, interpreted:
> "I ride a bike so I'll ignore the law and feel sanctimonious while doing
> it".

Or, interpreted:

"I drive a car and am thereby entitled.

But I'm subject to numerous restrictions and limitations.

So I demand homage from non-motorized street users, expressed
by their needless putting-up with the same restrictions and
limitations as myself."


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

[BIG ONE]

On Aug 1, 3:29*am, Janet <ja...@nospam.nojunk> wrote:

> THERE are CAR-CAR accidents because

cars can be dangerous and the people in them fail to drive them with
sufficient care as to avoid collision.

Calling car crashes 'accidents' is really quite misleading because if
the person in control of the vehicle at the time is clearly not taking
appropriate action as to avoid endangering others ... and this is not
accidental but a deliberately reckless activity - and your choice of
words makes it sound acceptable. The defense you offer is that drivers
do not expect to have obsticles in front of them which is possible,
but evidence of poor driving, a lack of caution and therefore any
collision resulting would not be an accident but the result of the
driver not looking where they were going... so yes it would be valid
to point the finger at the bad driver who murdered the cyclists.

> whatever is blowing through the red light CANNOT be seen until it's too
> late.

do you mean:
'cannot be seen by people in cars....' ?
is it impossible for them to be in such control of their vehicle that
they cannot help but charge headlong into the unknown?
I have never seen the location you mention, but am sure you could
provide photographs and similar referencing to support your claim if
it is true ... and present it to the appropriate authority - who would
no doubt take action to avoid this reckless driving
more likely you mean:
'often is not seen by the more reckless people in control of
cars....'

> The people with the GREEN LIGHT have the RIGHT OF WAY

doesn't holding a right entail a responsibility to act such that
acting upon that right does not endanger others ?

> and it's the
> RESPONSIBILITY of the people (REGARDLESS of WHAT their vehicle of choice
> is) to STOP AT THE RED LIGHT!

so those who choose not to are not responsible ?
if they are not responsible you can't hold it against them
children are not generally responsible for earning money & it would be
silly to SHOUT AT THEM for not doing so

I will not address your comments regarding choice of vehicle
as
I believe Mr. Cole has done a good job at that which you have for some
unknown reason decided to ignore

[Peter Cole]

Janet wrote:

> Because people that don't ride ASSUME That people dressed like
> Tour-de-France wannabe's KNOW the CORRECT way for cyclists to ride on
> the road.

Really?

> When they do stupid things, they make it bad for the rest of us.

How?

> READ my post - VISIBILITY is BAD. THERE are CAR-CAR accidents because
> whatever is blowing through the red light CANNOT be seen until it's too
> late.

I thought the topic was bikes.

> The people with the GREEN LIGHT have the RIGHT OF WAY and it's the
> RESPONSIBILITY of the people (REGARDLESS of WHAT their vehicle of choice
> is) to STOP AT THE RED LIGHT!

Legally, that's usually true -- most of the laws in most jurisdictions
are the same for cars & bikes, pragmatically, the issues are much
different. Bicyclists are generally unlicensed, moving violations
generally have much smaller penalties, and enforcement is generally lax.
The basis for these realities is that cyclists present an almost
negligible risk to other road users.

Riding in congested conditions is unpleasant, the only reason to do it
is that it's an efficient way of getting through gridlock. I ride in
what I consider to be an efficient and pragmatic fashion. I also believe
it to be safe in part because I haven't ever had an accident in decades
and many thousands of miles riding. I really don't care in the slightest
how other people cycle (or how they dress). I have no interest in
preaching or converting, either.

I'm a believer in courte