awareness

[vigilante_justice]

I was wondering if anyone would be interested in starting a list and keeping a current up to date record of information using a forum board or website regarding the types, makes, models and plate numbers (if possible) of cars on the road that intentionally put our lives at risk.
This sunday 8.24.08 a blue hyundai tiburon with a wing on the back very nearly killed 30 cyclist on 751 near Apex as we were turning back onto Marthas Chapel road. Had not the lead rider looked before turning, signalling with his arm out, riding next to the center line with 30 others behind him doing the same, he and those that followed would have been killed by the blue tiburon who was passing us doing at least 50 mph in the left lane.
We need to draw attention to this type of behaviour and make record of it. The intended goal is prevention, but if we have a record of reckless behaviour when someone is injured or killed, this may give us more ammo for stiffer penalties and GOD FORBID, ACCOUNTABILITY!!!!
anyone in favour, post.

[macgyverswife]

Wow, getting almost mowed down is so scary. You were really lucky that the lead rider looked. Please don't get upset at me for asking this, but do you think it's possible that because of the size of your group the car did not realize you were turning left. Since I wasn't there, I don't know all of the circumstances. If you say that's not possible I believe you. I just remember when I was a younger driver that I passed a couple of cars on a two lane highway and it turned out the car two cars ahead was turning left. Luckily this car could stop his turn and didn't hit me. I couldn't see it's turn signal and didn't realize it was turning. Was that my fault? Sure. Did I do it on purpose? No way.

Obviously, more care needs to be taken when passing cyclists in general. In my opinion the drivers often don't allow enough room when passing. Taking out the driver's who intentionally want to scare or harm people, do you think a driver who passes to closely thinks they've put the rider in danger, or do they just think they've put themselves in a potential head on collision?

I've also been reading in the newspaper about Wake? county revamping the Driver's Education for the purpose of decreasing teen deaths. Maybe that's an opportunity for the cycling community to push for more education on driving and cyclists.

Again, if I had just nearly been killed by a speeding car, I would be very angry, but I'm hoping my question doesn't increase your anger.

[tacos]

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/08/16/rowlands.bike.clash.crash.cnn


If it weren't for the cyclist near the end of the video the driver would probibly have gotten away with it.

I was the lead rider when the blue hyundai passed, by luck I heard the engine and looked over my shoulder in time to see the front bumper of the car right before I leaned into the turn.

"30 cyclist on 751 near Apex as we were turning back onto Marthas Chapel road" We were actually on Farrington road turning left onto Marthas Chapel.


"Please don't get upset at me for asking this, but do you think it's possible that because of the size of your group the car did not realize you were turning left. Since I wasn't there, I don't know all of the circumstances. If you say that's not possible I believe you. I just remember when I was a younger driver that I passed a couple of cars on a two lane highway and it turned out the car two cars ahead was turning left. Luckily this car could stop his turn and didn't hit me. I couldn't see it's turn signal and didn't realize it was turning. Was that my fault? Sure. Did I do it on purpose? No way.'

This question is not upsetting because you don't know the circumstances, they are: after we passed the yellow sign inicating there is a road to the left I looked over my shoulder and saw no cars then signaled a left turn and moved to the center line the group stuck together in a single file line then as I said before I was lucky to hear the engine.

Weather or not he did it on purpose is irrelevant, that section of road has a clear line of sight for a vary long way, the fact that we moved from the right shoulder to the center line after the sign signaling a road to the left should have been a clue that somthing was happening. This driver was in to much of a hurry to realize he could have at least one life.

[dahumanpretzal]

i live very close by to where you are talking about and have been passed by that car before. i almost ALWAYS ride by myself for the lack of being able to join up with a group. when that car passed me, they actually gave me quite a bit of room and weren't speeding. FYI, 50 mph on 751 IS NOT SPEEDING the speed limit is actually 55mph. i'm not totally defending the driver but the fact that only the leader signaled in a group of 30 is a really bad idea. also, i generally look back every time i turn left regardless because you have to expect that kind of stuff is going to happen, otherwise YOU will end up as the ammo.

[cobalt]

i'm all for creating a list. it never ceases to amaze me the stupidity of people on the roads and their lack of regard for human life; not just for cyclist, but for joggers and walkers, too. farrington/marthas chapel are dangerous roads from my perspective. and i ride them quite often b/c they're there to ride. i usually do solo rides but have been on group rides where it's gotten very dangerous very quickly. sunday evening biking up green level to durham i was passed by two teenage girls in a white sedan with white and purple writing on the windows like someone was graduating or had a birthday or something. there are two lanes in each directoin on GLTD road and they still managed to let out a couple of obscenities at me despite my having done NOTHING wrong. i chased them but was going uphill, so i lost that battle (just barely...thank you, legs). i even rode through a couple of nearby apartment complexes before turning onto carpenter firestation thinking maybe the girls lived in that area. no luck. so i thought maybe those are school colors. anyone know of a high school with purple and white colors in the western wake area ? i would love to give them a piece of my mind and smash a window or two. i usually don't let these types of things get to me, but they just really pissed me off.

[TomG]

Starting a list would be great. If one is built then you would want to make sure that you keep it a static page and make it ideal for search engines. Get other boards to link to it and it will climb up on Google searches. A forum like this is probably not ideal for that unless it's a sticky or something that does not move.

As far as education, I personally think it's a waste of time. The core issue is that people do not have basic respect for others. If people need additional pages in a driver's manual to make them realize that those are human beings on those bikes then those people should not be driving in the first place.

The government needs to come down hard on people who hit cyclists and even harder down on people who deliberately go after and/or harass riders on the road. I think the best option there is to have more cops patrolling the roads we ride on.

That's my soapbox rant for the day. :)

[robbielink]

If such a list were made I think it would have to be heavily monitored and the content kept as objective as possible - possibly only allowing content with corroborating police reports. Otherwise it would just become another venting outlet where no one really knows the whole truth. I can tell you that I've felt my life was threatened just as much by stupid bikers as by stupid motorists. Things like some riders in a group bunching up in the opposite lane while waiting at an intersection so that a turning motorist would either hit them or swerve into the other lane and hit the riders who were following the rules of the road. I can think of many examples and I guess my approach to trying to "educate" some of my fellow riders isn't very good because I don't see things improving.

I DO think there should be some central list of local accident reports involving cyclists and followup articles including court case outcomes and injury reports. It has been difficult to keep track of the state of various recent cases. And a list like that would be a good one to point local media to whenever the "cyclists are the problem" type articles start appearing again (which they will as there are more and more of us on the road).

[TomG]

There are definitely a fair number of riders who need a swift kick in the rear. No doubt about that. If I see people like that on rides I will either try to drop them or just let them go. There are usually two types; squirrels (people who cannot hold their line) and riders who think that just because they have the traffic laws on their side that they are somehow immune to a half ton vehicle hitting them.

For a central list, that's easy. Those are in stacks of paper at local precincts. If you really want to research accidents then you have to do it yourself. You cannot rely on the media to feed it to you. Their job is to keep your attention for 10 minutes at a time and then move on to the next award winning report on whatever subject is hot this week.

[RickF]

anyone know of a high school with purple and white colors in the western wake area ?


Holly Springs (http://hollyspringshs.wcpss.net/index.html), which would explain the bad attitude while driving. The worst encounters I have had with drivers trying to intimidate cyclists have been in Holly Springs and Fuquay Varina. I ride nearlly every day in areas with much more traffic and never have a problem with drivers, but drivers in Holly Springs and Fuquay Varina have yelled obseneties and flipped me off even when they were going in the opposite direction and even when I was on the shoulder and they were in the left lane with no other traffic.

[jvp]

I had more drivers honk trying to startle me, or yell at me, this past weekend riding at emerald isle (in a 3' "bike" lane) than all of this past year riding around raleigh. Alcohol?
Boredom? Don't get out much? I don't know.

[sportingfool]

I had more drivers honk trying to startle me, or yell at me, this past weekend riding at emerald isle (in a 3' "bike" lane) than all of this past year riding around raleigh. Alcohol?
Boredom? Don't get out much? I don't know.

Maybe just horny :p

[Big H]

I think the thing that bothers me most is the guy driving a truck pulling a trailer or boat, once they pass kindly, they forget about the extra 30-40 ft they have behind them and start coming back over with the side or end of the trailer coming close to me. Education is important for all, drivers and cyclists. Heck, I can use more in both ares. One of the previous posts hit it on the head, it's attitude in the person whom is driving. We can have the best laid plans for bike lanes, etc, but there will still be crazy folks driving! Defensive riding is what I practice , for now. Wish it could be more relaxed rides.

[jvp]

Now wider boats will be able to be towed, if the law gets changed. So when they pass a cyclist and oncoming traffic at the same time, guess who gets to move over one way or another?

[TomG]

Once I perfect my Laser Beam Mount for my Tri-Bars, this whole discussion will become a non-issue.

:D

[piper_chuck]

I find it sad that each group spends more time complaining about the other group than they do analyzing their own behavior looking for ways to do better. When we're cycling, we can't control how people drive. However, we can, and should, control how we ride.

Some hot buttons I've read about:

Large groups - At some point, a group of bikes becomes so big that they're nearly impossible to pass. Is it really right that such a group should force someone to follow them for long periods of time?

Small groups riding two abreast - This is another common complaint from cagers, and I've encountered it too. If you hear a car coming, get into a single file line.

Running stop signs - I've seen groups who must think they're one vehicle instead of a collection of individual riders. One time I was riding in such a pack of 50 or so bikes during a big event. The group rolled through a stop sign even though there was a car coming. This put the car in the position of being stuck behind a group that was essentially impossible to pass. It was at this point that I detached myself from the group.

Poor route selection - Sometimes we choose to ride on roads at times that are less than ideal. NC 751 is one such road. Heading south on 751 between 4 and 6:30 or so on a week night, especially in a big group, is only going to lead to conflict.

[JeffR]

I would argue that it is easier to SAFELY pass a group of 10-20 cyclist, if they are ride 3 wide. Either way, in order to SAFELY pass, the driver has to move into the other lane, if you are 3 wide the distance that the driver has to travel in the other lane is greatly reduced.

A large group strung out single file can be impossible to pass, if that same group is bunched together, it is more like passing a slow moving car.

[piper_chuck]

Yes, it is easier to pass a large group when they aren't strung out. Note that in my post I said small groups. The cagers are constantly commenting about encountering a small group or even a pair of riders who are side by side.

[JeffR]

I am not arguing your point just adding to it.

Whether it is 2 or 20, to pass safely and legally, with the require 3 ft, a driver must go into the other lane and therefore must wait until it is clear. There is rarely a problem when a car waits until it is clear the problems arise when drivers try to squeeze by with on coming traffic.

[ChrisA]

Good discussion. The answer I believe is legislation. While yes calling in plate numbers does help it is a "bandaid" so-to-speak with the current laws on the books. I say bombard your elected officials with links to media reports and personal experiences with this sort of driver behavior. Just my two cents.

[macgyverswife]

Large groups - At some point, a group of bikes becomes so big that they're nearly impossible to pass. Is it really right that such a group should force someone to follow them for long periods of time?

Small groups riding two abreast - This is another common complaint from cagers, and I've encountered it too. If you hear a car coming, get into a single file line.

It's got to be unpopular with cyclists to limit the size of groups. How can a shop ride leader foresee the group size before the meet-up time? However, I think it's worth figuring out how to deal with this issue because giant packs of cyclists do increase driver's irritations at all cyclists, not just that one pack.

Also, I think it's much safer as a cyclist to be passed 2 abreast - small or large group. As JeffR says, the driver has to wait until the on coming traffic is clear and the group is more compact, seemingly easier to pass. Educating drivers that it's actually a better way for cyclists to ride could ease the tension on this issue. Piper chuck are you saying it decreases tensions by moving to a single-file line if a group is small, or that it's easier to pass?

Do pack riders want more bike lanes, or is that just small group riders and commuters? Just curious.

[RickF]

Do pack riders want more bike lanes, or is that just small group riders and commuters? Just curious.
I am both a commuter and a pack rider. What is better than bike lanes, IMO, are wide outside lanes. I ride regularly on both. There are two problems with bike lanes. The first is that they end up collecting all of the debris because cars do not ride on them to blow the debris further into the gutter. The second is that joggers seem to prefer bike lanes to sidewalks. Drivers really get irritated when there is a bike lane and cyclists do not use it, but far too often, the bike lanes have so much debris and broken glass that they are unusable.

Making a left turn from a bike lane confuses drivers and cyclists alike. To turn safely, the cyclist must leave the bike lane and get to the left side of the driving lane (or the turning lane or left lane if there are more than two lanes). Drivers expect cyclists to stay in the bike lane. Some cyclists try to turn left from the bike lane, crossing several lanes of traffic to make the turn. Both of these are wrong.

The portion of Davis Drive where the construction is completed is a good example of wide outside lanes. I was riding home from work one day side-by-side with an eighteen-wheeler. He was not crowding me into the gutter, and he was not over the white line into the left lane. I figure that if there is room for a semi and a cyclist, then no other driver should have any reason to complain about cyclists on that road.

Cyclists do have to ride single file to make the wide outside lane work as intended, but I do not have a problem with that.

[piper_chuck]

The irritation I've read is when small groups, even just a couple people, ride side by side. I don't think anyone in a car considers a group of 20 bikes to be a "small" group, especially when they're trying to pass them. Part of their irritation with side by side is self inflicted because some drivers think they are entitled to pass a bike even when there is oncoming traffic. Riding side by side clearly removes this unsafe option. However, I think some drivers also worry about having to move further over the yellow line when they have to go around side by side bikes. Clearly 20 bikes riding single file will be more difficult to pass than if they're riding in a double pace line. OTOH, when 5 bikes are riding together and one or two people has doubled up and is chatting, the people trying to pass view the cyclists as inconsiderate.

One solution for larger groups would be to split up. What's a reasonable number of people to stay together when we consider things from the perspective of someone in a car who is trying to pass on a country road?

Some more possibilities include recognizing the frustration of the driver that's following them and signaling when it's safe for a car to pass, making it easier for the car to pass by breaking into smaller groups, or even finding a spot to slow down or stop for a minute to let them by. This may not be popular among hammer groups, but we do have to remember that the signs say "share the road", not "hog the road".

[JimP]

Some more possibilities include recognizing the frustration of the driver that's following them and signaling when it's safe for a car to pass, making it easier for the car to pass by breaking into smaller groups, or even finding a spot to slow down or stop for a minute to let them by. This may not be popular among hammer groups, but we do have to remember that the signs say "share the road", not "hog the road".
When I am riding solo and know I have been 'blocking' traffic due to narrow roads and lots of cars both ways, I find a spot to pull to the side for a moment to let cars pass. Hurts my MPH average but makes me feel safer :).

[jvp]

I like it when the (usually) pick up or suv drivers make it a point to dramatically race their engines, over-accelerate, and over-swerve when they pass me riding solo. As if to demonstrate the massive horsepower advantage they have over me. Meanwhile professional truck drivers manage to regularly pass me with little problem on their or my part.