Lance ramblings

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

Just some random thoughts. Like I said in another thread, American
cyclists seem to have too much reverence for European cycling, and
Armstrong is no exception. In fact, some of his dumbest moves were
awkward attempts to live up to his perception of cycling tradition,
e.g., letting Pantani win on the Ventoux, and his last words on the
Tour podium "Vive le Tour" were completely off base, given what the
French were going to do to him a few weeks later and how Prudhomme
still dares to say that his wins are tainted by suspicion (maybe true,
but not someone in his position should say). Armstrong doesn't seem to
appreciate the seamy and ridiculous aspects of the race. In fact, he
isn't even very erudite, when questioned about the early victors he
continually replied Petit Breton showing that this was the only name
he knew from that period. You might think that he would have read up
on it during his years of fascination with the Tour. By the way, I was
in a bike shop in Berkeley trying on some ancient looking cycling caps
and I told the person next to me who had tried one that he looked like
the first Tour winner and when I asked him who that was, he replied
Henri Desgrange, and even after being corrected (I told him that he
was the co-founder of the Tour but I doubt he even understood why I
made that qualification) he told me that he was responsible for the
website http://www.europeloton.com/ This website was the final straw
that led me to this theory about the American view of Euro cycling.

I suppose the other reason for this fascination with the Tour is that
Armstrong has still not overcome the American belief that the Tour is
the only bike race of interest. After the L'Equipe 2005 fiasco and the
ASO snub that followed, I half expected Armstrong to develop his own
stage race to eventually compete and surpass the Tour de France. He
correctly refused to return to cycling in 2005 because he had already
proved himself and shouldn't let his riding be dictated by the
stupidity of French organizers. His decision to return now contradicts
the common sense he showed them. I am reminded of what Graeme Obree
stated in his book The Flying Scotsman: After becoming world champion
he went into a deep depression, then decided to get out of it by
winning worlds again. While interned in a psychiatric hospital, he
told his therapist that he wanted to train for another world
championship as that would surely solve all his problems, and the
therapist pointed out to him that he had already done that twice and
each time it didn't work. That observation was very convincing and
gave Obree some real peace of mind, as he realized that he couldn't
just live off his last recent success, nor could anyone, for that
matter.

Like I said in another post, Armstrong probably didn't even know
anything about track cycling at the Olympics, because he didn't
mention that a 43 year old had won the Madison. I think that this
probably reflects a total lack of knowledge and interest in track
cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
Clark. The less intense training regimen would have been more
consistent with his current lifestyle and he would have to lose as
much weight (I assume that he weighs close to 80kg and will need to
lose a lot of weight to ride the Tour). He could have also given a
boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
one not that far in Frisco. The closer atmosphere of track racing
might have been interesting. The other thing is that this would have
prepared him for doing an hour record attempt, which is one thing he
had been considering in the past, and that record was almost broken by
Moser at age 42. He could have tried to do the 2012 Olympics in the
points race and Madison (assuming other Americans improved enough in
the meantime). In fact, he probably could have made the team this year
if he had started training last year.

Upon rereading what I wrote, I realize that it is sort of ridiculous,
because I'm basically saying that I think Armstrong shouldn't be
Armstrong. That's what happens when you ramble....

-ilan

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article
<bedca224-bf12-4ade-9138-8cdbc408078a@b30g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
ilanpsi@gmail.com wrote:

> Just some random thoughts. Like I said in another thread, American
> cyclists seem to have too much reverence for European cycling, and
> Armstrong is no exception. In fact, some of his dumbest moves were
> awkward attempts to live up to his perception of cycling tradition,
> e.g., letting Pantani win on the Ventoux, and his last words on the
> Tour podium "Vive le Tour" were completely off base, given what the
> French were going to do to him a few weeks later and how Prudhomme
> still dares to say that his wins are tainted by suspicion (maybe true,
> but not someone in his position should say). Armstrong doesn't seem to
> appreciate the seamy and ridiculous aspects of the race. In fact, he
> isn't even very erudite, when questioned about the early victors he
> continually replied Petit Breton showing that this was the only name
> he knew from that period. You might think that he would have read up
> on it during his years of fascination with the Tour. By the way, I was
> in a bike shop in Berkeley trying on some ancient looking cycling caps
> and I told the person next to me who had tried one that he looked like
> the first Tour winner and when I asked him who that was, he replied
> Henri Desgrange, and even after being corrected (I told him that he
> was the co-founder of the Tour but I doubt he even understood why I
> made that qualification) he told me that he was responsible for the
> website http://www.europeloton.com/ This website was the final straw
> that led me to this theory about the American view of Euro cycling.
>
> I suppose the other reason for this fascination with the Tour is that
> Armstrong has still not overcome the American belief that the Tour is
> the only bike race of interest. After the L'Equipe 2005 fiasco and the
> ASO snub that followed, I half expected Armstrong to develop his own
> stage race to eventually compete and surpass the Tour de France. He
> correctly refused to return to cycling in 2005 because he had already
> proved himself and shouldn't let his riding be dictated by the
> stupidity of French organizers. His decision to return now contradicts
> the common sense he showed them. I am reminded of what Graeme Obree
> stated in his book The Flying Scotsman: After becoming world champion
> he went into a deep depression, then decided to get out of it by
> winning worlds again. While interned in a psychiatric hospital, he
> told his therapist that he wanted to train for another world
> championship as that would surely solve all his problems, and the
> therapist pointed out to him that he had already done that twice and
> each time it didn't work. That observation was very convincing and
> gave Obree some real peace of mind, as he realized that he couldn't
> just live off his last recent success, nor could anyone, for that
> matter.
>
> Like I said in another post, Armstrong probably didn't even know
> anything about track cycling at the Olympics, because he didn't
> mention that a 43 year old had won the Madison. I think that this
> probably reflects a total lack of knowledge and interest in track
> cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> Clark. The less intense training regimen would have been more
> consistent with his current lifestyle and he would have to lose as
> much weight (I assume that he weighs close to 80kg and will need to
> lose a lot of weight to ride the Tour). He could have also given a
> boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
> one not that far in Frisco. The closer atmosphere of track racing
> might have been interesting. The other thing is that this would have
> prepared him for doing an hour record attempt, which is one thing he
> had been considering in the past, and that record was almost broken by
> Moser at age 42. He could have tried to do the 2012 Olympics in the
> points race and Madison (assuming other Americans improved enough in
> the meantime). In fact, he probably could have made the team this year
> if he had started training last year.
>
> Upon rereading what I wrote, I realize that it is sort of ridiculous,
> because I'm basically saying that I think Armstrong shouldn't be
> Armstrong. That's what happens when you ramble....

ilan, you sweet dumbass:

Everything above that you wrote was beautiful nonsense. Armstrong
doesn't know obscure bits of Tour history* because he is a bike racer,
and all bike racers are mental. Nonetheless, he was able to successfully
figure out what the greatest race in cycling is, and so can most people
in Texas (perhaps only because of Lance). Having done so, he tried to
win it as many times as he could.

You see a similar phenomenon in ice hockey: most top-flight Euros come
to play in the NHL because that's where the money and the elite game is.
I would not be so impertinent as to quiz them on the accomplishments of
Gordie Howe, or Tim Horton, or Guy Lafleur, or Dave Semenko, much less
minutia from the Rover era. Fans care about such things: the sportsmen
need not.

As for building a velodrome in Austin, that's dumb too. The capital
costs for such projects are a rounding error compared to the operating
costs and necessary volunteer hours to run a 'drome. Unless Lance feels
the need to create a hopeless time-sink for area cyclists, there's no
point in worrying about capital costs until there's a huge grassroots
push for a velodrome.

Finally, track is, except for its participants and six-day and keirin
fans, hopelessly infra dig. You might as well encourage Lance to take up
BMX, since he has the basic tools to do well in that sport.

--
Ryan Cousineau rcousine@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

[raamman@gmail.com]

On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> Just some random thoughts. Like I said in another thread, American
> cyclists seem to have too much reverence for European cycling, and
> Armstrong is no exception. In fact, some of his dumbest moves were
> awkward attempts to live up to his perception of cycling tradition,
> e.g., letting Pantani win on the Ventoux, and his last words on the
> Tour podium "Vive le Tour" were completely off base, given what the
> French were going to do to him a few weeks later and how Prudhomme
> still dares to say that his wins are tainted by suspicion (maybe true,
> but not someone in his position should say). Armstrong doesn't seem to
> appreciate the seamy and ridiculous aspects of the race. In fact, he
> isn't even very erudite, when questioned about the early victors he
> continually replied Petit Breton showing that this was the only name
> he knew from that period. You might think that he would have read up
> on it during his years of fascination with the Tour. By the way, I was
> in a bike shop in Berkeley trying on some ancient looking cycling caps
> and I told the person next to me who had tried one that he looked like
> the first Tour winner and when I asked him who that was, he replied
> Henri Desgrange, and even after being corrected (I told him that he
> was the co-founder of the Tour but I doubt he even understood why I
> made that qualification) *he told me that he was responsible for the
> websitehttp://www.europeloton.com/This website was the final straw
> that led me to this theory about the American view of Euro cycling.
>
> I suppose the other reason for this fascination with the Tour is that
> Armstrong has still not overcome the American belief that the Tour is
> the only bike race of interest. After the L'Equipe 2005 fiasco and the
> ASO snub that followed, I half expected Armstrong to develop his own
> stage race to eventually compete and surpass the Tour de France. He
> correctly refused to return to cycling in 2005 because he had already
> proved himself and shouldn't let his riding be dictated by the
> stupidity of French organizers. His decision to return now contradicts
> the common sense he showed them. I am reminded of what Graeme Obree
> stated in his book The Flying Scotsman: After becoming world champion
> he went into a deep depression, then decided to get out of it by
> winning worlds again. While interned in a psychiatric hospital, he
> told his therapist that he wanted to train for another world
> championship as that would surely solve all his problems, and the
> therapist pointed out to him that he had already done that twice and
> each time it didn't work. That observation was very convincing and
> gave Obree some real peace of mind, as he realized that he couldn't
> just live off his last recent success, nor could anyone, for that
> matter.
>
> Like I said in another post, Armstrong probably didn't even know
> anything about track cycling at the Olympics, because he didn't
> mention that a 43 year old had won the Madison. I think that this
> probably reflects a total lack of knowledge and interest in track
> cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> Clark. The less intense training regimen would have been more
> consistent with his current lifestyle and he would have to lose as
> much weight (I assume that he weighs close to 80kg and will need to
> lose a lot of weight to ride the Tour). He could have also given a
> boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
> one not that far in Frisco. The closer atmosphere of track racing
> might have been interesting. The other thing is that this would have
> prepared him for doing an hour record attempt, which is one thing he
> had been considering in the past, and that record was almost broken by
> Moser at age 42. He could have tried to do the 2012 Olympics in the
> points race and Madison (assuming other Americans improved enough in
> the meantime). In fact, he probably could have made the team this year
> if he had started training last year.
>
> Upon rereading what I wrote, I realize that it is sort of ridiculous,
> because I'm basically saying that I think Armstrong shouldn't be
> Armstrong. That's what happens when you ramble....
>
> -ilan

I think given the north american nascar culture it is remarkable that
a Lance could find his way to the tour; he shouldn't have to be
storied in it as the guy in breaking away

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> Just some random thoughts.

Thank you for sharing.

> Like I said in another thread, American
> cyclists seem to have too much reverence for European cycling, and
> Armstrong is no exception.

I've recommended "Sweat of the Gods" to all my cycling friends.

> In fact, some of his dumbest moves were
> awkward attempts to live up to his perception of cycling tradition,
> e.g., letting Pantani win on the Ventoux, and his last words on the
> Tour podium "Vive le Tour" were completely off base, given what the
> French were going to do to him a few weeks later

> I take that (his comments) 180deg the other way.


> I suppose the other reason for this fascination with the Tour is that
> Armstrong has still not overcome the American belief that the Tour is
> the only bike race of interest.

The "biggest" event, the grand scale, Armstrong's being a most
unlikely winner (even to fans of cycle racing, given his more-natural
fit as a one-day specialist); hours of TV time (well, maybe...) Greg
Lemond's story incl. comeback... it's kind of a hand-in-glove thing to
me.


> Like I said in another post, Armstrong probably didn't even know
> anything about track cycling at the Olympics, because he didn't
> mention that a 43 year old had won the Madison. I think that this
> probably reflects a total lack of knowledge and interest in track
> cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> Clark. The less intense training regimen would have been more
> consistent with his current lifestyle and he would have to lose as
> much weight (I assume that he weighs close to 80kg and will need to
> lose a lot of weight to ride the Tour). He could have also given a
> boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
> one not that far in Frisco. The closer atmosphere of track racing
> might have been interesting. The other thing is that this would have
> prepared him for doing an hour record attempt, which is one thing he
> had been considering in the past, and that record was almost broken by
> Moser at age 42. He could have tried to do the 2012 Olympics in the
> points race and Madison (assuming other Americans improved enough in
> the meantime). In fact, he probably could have made the team this year
> if he had started training last year.

Some people here have been wanting a track for many a moon. Some
people are of the opinion that Austin came very close to getting the
track that Houston got, that it was an inside job, a switcheroo so to
speak.

Replying to comments by R. Cousineau in another post as well as
Ilan's, here: There was a recent "push" for a track here. Nothing
concrete (excuse please) came of it; there was another close call ca.
1996 or so, with, according to statements made publicly by interested
parties, that the Austin city council was prepared to build an
"Alkek" (333m, cement, outdoor) that was torpedoed by said interests,
who wanted a Blaine ("wood", shorter). That is, one or two or some
such small number of self-appointed "representatives" unfortunately
had an aggressive "say" at a city council meeting "pre www.austincitycouncil.org"
days" of easily accessible info. Too bad!

The other side of the coin so to speak is, I attended "Senior IV/V
Night" on Saturday at Alkek for some part of the nearly four years
('97-2001) we lived in Houston. It was a public "Parks and Rec"
facility; located not too far out of town (the ever-present traffic
jam notwithstanding); entry fees and bike rental fees (from a decent,
not huge rental fleet) were *cheap* by modern standards; good
refereeing, a strong emphasis on safety; excellent "beginner" programs
incl. getting kids out of the inner city to ride (Shell-sponsored
program, a feather in the cap); there is a pretty strong "racer" group
in Houston despite the problems involved in riding anywhere near the
city; so forth and so on to the point: a field on a "strong" night for
any of the mass-start IV/V events might be 15 people. Maybe 20, which
was rare. Friday nights, with Vet cats. etc. was better attended, and
Champs of whatever stripe (again, sorry) were busy.

Soooo-- maybe Lance does know something about track racing on a couple
of different levels, and that's why he's not participating, on a
couple of different levels <g>.

> Upon rereading what I wrote, I realize that it is sort of ridiculous,
> because I'm basically saying that I think Armstrong shouldn't be
> Armstrong.

Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. "The samples are still
frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
day. --D-y

[RicodJour]

On Sep 12, 1:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> He could have also given a
> boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
> one not that far in Frisco.

To those wondering as I was, he's referring to Frisco, TX 'only' 225
miles away - relatively close in velodrome-miles - not San Francisco
at ~1800 miles, which is still hoping for one.
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-137406.html

R

[Andy Coggan]

On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:

> track
> cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> Clark. The less intense training regimen

Dumbass,

Less intense training regimen??

Andy Coggan

[raamman@gmail.com]

On Sep 12, 8:05*am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Just some random thoughts.
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> > Like I said in another thread, American
> > cyclists seem to have too much reverence for European cycling, and
> > Armstrong is no exception.
>
> I've recommended "Sweat of the Gods" to all my cycling friends.
>
> > In fact, some of his dumbest moves were
> > awkward attempts to live up to his perception of cycling tradition,
> > e.g., letting Pantani win on the Ventoux, and his last words on the
> > Tour podium "Vive le Tour" were completely off base, given what the
> > French were going to do to him a few weeks later
> > I take that (his comments) 180deg the other way.
> > I suppose the other reason for this fascination with the Tour is that
> > Armstrong has still not overcome the American belief that the Tour is
> > the only bike race of interest.
>
> The "biggest" event, the grand scale, Armstrong's being a most
> unlikely winner (even to fans of cycle racing, given his more-natural
> fit as a one-day specialist); hours of TV time (well, maybe...) Greg
> Lemond's story incl. comeback... it's kind of a hand-in-glove thing to
> me.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Like I said in another post, Armstrong probably didn't even know
> > anything about track cycling at the Olympics, because he didn't
> > mention that a 43 year old had won the Madison. I think that this
> > probably reflects a total lack of knowledge and interest in track
> > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > Clark. The less intense training regimen would have been more
> > consistent with his current lifestyle and he would have to lose as
> > much weight (I assume that he weighs close to 80kg and will need to
> > lose a lot of weight to ride the Tour). He could have also given a
> > boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
> > one not that far in Frisco. The closer atmosphere of track racing
> > might have been interesting. The other thing is that this would have
> > prepared him for doing an hour record attempt, which is one thing he
> > had been considering in the past, and that record was almost broken by
> > Moser at age 42. He could have tried to do the 2012 Olympics in the
> > points race and Madison (assuming other Americans improved enough in
> > the meantime). In fact, he probably could have made the team this year
> > if he had started training last year.
>
> Some people here have been wanting a track for many a moon. Some
> people are of the opinion that Austin came very close to getting the
> track that Houston got, that it was an inside job, a switcheroo so to
> speak.
>
> Replying to comments by R. Cousineau in another post as well as
> Ilan's, here: There was a recent "push" for a track here. Nothing
> concrete (excuse please) came of it; there was another close call ca.
> 1996 or so, with, according to statements made publicly by interested
> parties, that the Austin city council was prepared to build an
> "Alkek" (333m, cement, outdoor) that was torpedoed by said interests,
> who wanted a Blaine ("wood", shorter). That is, one or two or some
> such small number of self-appointed "representatives" unfortunately
> had an aggressive "say" at a city council meeting "prewww.austincitycouncil.org"
> days" of easily accessible info. Too bad!
>
> The other side of the coin so to speak is, I attended "Senior IV/V
> Night" on Saturday at Alkek for some part of the nearly four years
> ('97-2001) we lived in Houston. It was a public "Parks and Rec"
> facility; located not too far out of town (the ever-present traffic
> jam notwithstanding); entry fees and bike rental fees (from a decent,
> not huge rental fleet) were *cheap* by modern standards; good
> refereeing, a strong emphasis on safety; excellent "beginner" programs
> incl. getting kids out of the inner city to ride (Shell-sponsored
> program, a feather in the cap); there is a pretty strong "racer" group
> in Houston despite the problems involved in riding anywhere near the
> city; so forth and so on to the point: a field on a "strong" night for
> any of the mass-start IV/V events might be 15 people. Maybe 20, which
> was rare. Friday nights, with Vet cats. etc. was better attended, and
> Champs of whatever stripe (again, sorry) were busy.
>
> Soooo-- maybe Lance does know something about track racing on a couple
> of different levels, and that's why he's not participating, on a
> couple of different levels <g>.
>
> > Upon rereading what I wrote, I realize that it is sort of ridiculous,
> > because I'm basically saying that I think Armstrong shouldn't be
> > Armstrong.
>
> Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. *"The samples are still
> frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
> day. *--D-y- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I believe Lance tried his lotus tt bike on a track in the states
before he got cancer, did something like 26kms in 30 min, which gave
to some musings that he might do the hour.

theres marty nothstein, who was a fairly sucessful track rider who
despite his sucess remains fairly unknown in north america- so I think
lance likes being known ( might be a freudian thing against his absent
father)

[Keith]

>Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. "The samples are still
>frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
>day. --D-y

That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
used.

[Mike G]

In article
<1068c8ee-85de-4413-8a33-26411c853932@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:

> On Sep 12, 1:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > He could have also given a
> > boost to Austin cycling by building a velodrome, even though there is
> > one not that far in Frisco.
>
> To those wondering as I was, he's referring to Frisco, TX 'only' 225
> miles away - relatively close in velodrome-miles - not San Francisco
> at ~1800 miles, which is still hoping for one.
> http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-137406.html
>
> R

He's getting much better pub out of his bike shop "Mellow Johnny's", and
will probably make a little money too - something not common for
velodromes.

225 miles in Texas is nothing. I've known guys who do that each way for
lunch <grin>.

During the Olympic Festival in San Antonio the track action was in
Houston at the Alkek Velodrome (200 or so).

When needed, I've commuted to Frisco, TX from my home in Western Houston
- a quick 4.5 hour run of 258 miles. I only stopped when gas got to be
more than $3 a gal - it wasn't due to the distance.

Mike G.
-

[Bill C]

On Sep 12, 6:17*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. *"The samples are still
> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
> >day. *--D-y
>
> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
> used.

Are we talking about the SAME UCI, Wada, and ASO here??? Just asking.
Bill C

[Scott]

On Sep 12, 4:17*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. *"The samples are still
> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
> >day. *--D-y
>
> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
> used.

What the hell does the lack of a legal basis for testing those samples
got to do with anything???

[Keith]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sep 12, 6:17Â*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. Â*"The samples are still
>> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
>> >day. Â*--D-y
>>
>> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
>> used.
>
>Are we talking about the SAME UCI, Wada, and ASO here??? Just asking.
> Bill C

What's your point ?

[Bill C]

On Sep 13, 6:22*am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 12, 6:17*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. *"The samples are still
> >> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
> >> >day. *--D-y
>
> >> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
> >> used.
>
> >Are we talking about the SAME UCI, Wada, and ASO here??? Just asking.
> > Bill C
>
> What's your point ?

They will do whatever they want to, especially if they agree, or don't
get to infighting, and CAS will back it up if it goes that far.
Lance should, and probably does, know that he's walking into a den of
tigers on this one.
Bill C

[Keith]

On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 06:12:19 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<tritonrider@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Sep 13, 6:22Â*am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>>
>> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >On Sep 12, 6:17Â*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> >> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. Â*"The samples are still
>> >> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
>> >> >day. Â*--D-y
>>
>> >> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
>> >> used.
>>
>> >Are we talking about the SAME UCI, Wada, and ASO here??? Just asking.
>> > Bill C
>>
>> What's your point ?
>
>They will do whatever they want to, especially if they agree, or don't
>get to infighting, and CAS will back it up if it goes that far.
> Lance should, and probably does, know that he's walking into a den of
>tigers on this one.
> Bill C

Ah the good old conspiracy theory, hey dude, make sure someone hasn't
tapped your phone or put a keylogger on your computer.

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Sep 13, 8:12*am, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Sep 13, 6:22*am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> > <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >On Sep 12, 6:17*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> > >> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. *"The samples are still
> > >> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
> > >> >day. *--D-y
>
> > >> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
> > >> used.
>
> > >Are we talking about the SAME UCI, Wada, and ASO here??? Just asking.
> > > Bill C
>
> > What's your point ?
>
> They will do whatever they want to, especially if they agree, or don't
> get to infighting, and CAS will back it up if it goes that far.
> *Lance should, and probably does, know that he's walking into a den of
> tigers on this one.

Perhaps the crux of the matter? What should be a teapot-tempest,
playing large and wide? Bigger than Barry, far more than an asterisk
at stake?

Omerta Man returned, ready to battle on the roads, the labs, the
hearings, the very Courts of the Land(s)?

(Thank you Bill. The passive-agressive crud will wash off clean, no
worry!)

When do Pound and the UCI and ASO and the lab techs and bosses, etc.
etc. start serving their suspensions?
--D-y

[zzfranklin@mac.com]

On Sep 13, 6:29*am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Sep 2008 06:12:19 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
>
>
> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >On Sep 13, 6:22*am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:37:46 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
>
> >> <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> >On Sep 12, 6:17*pm, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> >> >> >Headstrong? He's walking right into the trap. *"The samples are still
> >> >> >frozen" and God knows what has been done to them to get ready for the
> >> >> >day. *--D-y
>
> >> >> That won't happen, there's no legal basis for these samples to be
> >> >> used.
>
> >> >Are we talking about the SAME UCI, Wada, and ASO here??? Just asking.
> >> > Bill C
>
> >> What's your point ?
>
> >They will do whatever they want to, especially if they agree, or don't
> >get to infighting, and CAS will back it up if it goes that far.
> > Lance should, and probably does, know that he's walking into a den of
> >tigers on this one.
> > Bill C
>
> Ah the good old conspiracy theory, hey dude, make sure someone hasn't
> tapped your phone or put a keylogger on your computer.

I put a keylogger on my own computer and I discovered that I'm the
most boring person in the world.

[dustoyevsky@mac.com]

On Sep 13, 8:35*am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:

(Snipped, esp. the "what's your point" doo-doo. Yucky! but snipped;
safe for breathing through the nose at this time)

> Omerta Man returned, ready to battle on the roads, the labs, the
> hearings, the very Courts of the Land(s)?

Labs, academic hierarchies, possibly courts:


<http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/
armstrong_coyle08>

Wow, they have Repuglicans in Austrailia, too! ("Get their judges"
paradigm; USA reference)
--D-y

[Bill C]

On Sep 13, 9:42*am, "dustoyev...@mac.com" <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:

>
> Wow, they have Repuglicans in Austrailia, too! ("Get their judges"
> paradigm; USA reference)
> --D-y

Hopefully they get the same sort of surprise that Bush Sr. Got with
Souter.
Bill C

[Bill C]

On Sep 18, 2:27*pm, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Dumbass,
>
> Less intense training regimen??
>
> Andy Coggan

Good to see you back in the rbr swing of things!
Bill C

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > track
> > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> Dumbass,
>
> Less intense training regimen??
>
> Andy Coggan

Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.

-ilan

[Andy Coggan]

On Sep 18, 1:56*pm, Bill C <tritonri...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Sep 18, 2:27*pm, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > Andy Coggan
>
> Good to see you back in the rbr swing of things!
> Bill C

You know the saying: when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Andy Coggan

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Sep 18, 12:45*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > track
> > > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > Andy Coggan
>
> Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.
>
> -ilan

It's nice to have one's ramblings peer reviewed for accuracy, assuming
you see me as your peer.

-Ilan Vardi, Ph.D.

[Andy Coggan]

On Sep 18, 2:45*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > track
> > > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > Andy Coggan
>
> Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.

You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend to train,
do you?

Andy Coggan

[Donald Munro]

ilanpsi wrote:
> It's nice to have one's ramblings peer reviewed for accuracy, assuming
> you see me as your peer.

The CSO is peerless and beerless.

[Andy Coggan]

On Sep 19, 12:54*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 18, 12:45*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > track
> > > > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > > > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > > > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > > > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > > > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> > > Dumbass,
>
> > > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > > Andy Coggan
>
> > Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.
>
> > -ilan
>
> It's nice to have one's ramblings peer reviewed for accuracy, assuming
> you see me as your peer.

You should be so lucky.

Andy Coggan

[Andy Coggan]

On Sep 19, 2:59*am, Donald Munro <fat-dumb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ilanpsi wrote:
> > It's nice to have one's ramblings peer reviewed for accuracy, assuming
> > you see me as your peer.
>
> The CSO is peerless and beerless.

But not cheerless.

Andy Coggan

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Sep 19, 8:01*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sep 18, 2:45*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > track
> > > > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > > > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > > > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > > > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > > > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> > > Dumbass,
>
> > > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > > Andy Coggan
>
> > Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.
>
> You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend to train,
> do you?
>
> Andy Coggan

From what I recalll of American law that is a leading question and can
only be asked on cross-examination. But, let's see, training methods
were influenced by the French win in the team pursuit at the 1996
Olympics in which two riders had just competed in the Tour de France.
As far as I know, that was the first time riders trained for the track
by riding the TdF then won a track event at the Olympics. A couple of
weeks later, Chris Boardman, who had been totally shelled in the Tour,
set unapproachable world records in the pursuit and for the hour.
Other very successful road riders who have won at the track: McGee,
O'Grady, etc. Currently, there is Mikhail Ignatiev who finished 3rd in
the Olympic Madison and shortly thereafter rode the Tour of Spain. So,
I assume that since 1996, very high volume training has been
considered beneficial for endurance track. Then there is the way
American endurance track cyclists train, which, seeing their results,
might more be an indication of how not to train. By the way, you're
probably too dense to realize that this last part is a troll, even
though it is true. And when I say "true", I mean I could submit it to
any refereed cycling magazine and it would get published (unless they
sent it to you and you would reject it, just because I was the author,
then I would have to file a challenge, then eventually sue, which
would lead to a trial in which you could finally ask me, on cross-
examination (after you had spent the intervening 4 years getting a law
degree): "You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend
to train, do you?" and I would respond by reading what I wrote above).
This is the first message I've ever written with two levels of
parenthensization.

-ilan

[Andy Coggan]

On Sep 19, 12:18*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sep 19, 8:01*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 18, 2:45*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > track
> > > > > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > > > > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > > > > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > > > > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > > > > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> > > > Dumbass,
>
> > > > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > > > Andy Coggan
>
> > > Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.
>
> > You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend to train,
> > do you?
>
> > Andy Coggan
>
> From what I recalll of American law that is a leading question and can
> only be asked on cross-examination. But, let's see, training methods
> were influenced by the French win in the team pursuit at the 1996
> Olympics in which two riders had just competed in the Tour de France.
> As far as I know, that was the first time riders trained for the track
> by riding the TdF then won a track event at the Olympics. A couple of
> weeks later, Chris Boardman, who had been totally shelled in the Tour,
> set unapproachable world records in the pursuit and for the hour.
> Other very successful road riders who have won at the track: McGee,
> O'Grady, etc. Currently, there is Mikhail Ignatiev who finished 3rd in
> the Olympic Madison and shortly thereafter rode the Tour of Spain. So,
> I assume that since 1996, very high volume training has been
> considered beneficial for endurance track. Then there is the way
> American endurance track cyclists train, which, seeing their results,
> might more be an indication of how not to train. By the way, you're
> probably too dense to realize that this last part is a troll, even
> though it is true. And when I say "true", I mean I could submit it to
> any refereed cycling magazine and it would get published (unless they
> sent it to you and you would reject it, just because I was the author,
> then I would have to file a challenge, then eventually sue, which
> would lead to a trial in which you could finally ask me, on cross-
> examination (after you had spent the intervening 4 years getting a law
> degree): "You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend
> to train, do you?" and I would respond by reading what I wrote above).

Thus proving my point. Thank you, your honor, no further questions.

Andy Coggan

[Carl Sundquist]

On Sep 19, 12:18*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> From what I recalll of American law that is a leading question and can
> only be asked on cross-examination. But, let's see, training methods
> were influenced by the French win in the team pursuit at the 1996
> Olympics in which two riders had just competed in the Tour de France.
> As far as I know, that was the first time riders trained for the track
> by riding the TdF then won a track event at the Olympics. A couple of
> weeks later, Chris Boardman, who had been totally shelled in the Tour,
> set unapproachable world records in the pursuit and for the hour.
> Other very successful road riders who have won at the track: McGee,
> O'Grady, etc. Currently, there is Mikhail Ignatiev who finished 3rd in
> the Olympic Madison and shortly thereafter rode the Tour of Spain. So,
> I assume that since 1996, very high volume training has been
> considered beneficial for endurance track. Then there is the way
> American endurance track cyclists train, which, seeing their results,
> might more be an indication of how not to train. By the way, you're
> probably too dense to realize that this last part is a troll, even
> though it is true. And when I say "true", I mean I could submit it to
> any refereed cycling magazine and it would get published (unless they
> sent it to you and you would reject it, just because I was the author,
> then I would have to file a challenge, then eventually sue, which
> would lead to a trial in which you could finally ask me, on cross-
> examination (after you had spent the intervening 4 years getting a law
> degree): "You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend
> to train, do you?" and I would respond by reading what I wrote above).
> This is the first message I've ever written with two levels of
> parenthensization.
>
> -ilan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ilan, remember that the Olympice weren't open to pros until '96, so
that's the first time that endurance riders could have ridden in teh
Tour and Olympics in the same year.

Previously, the Aussies had followed the old East German plan with
great success, as the US endurance team did with immediate success in
'94-95.

Just as an example, in November '94, we spent a month in Adelaide,
Australia training, which was unprecedented for organized team
training after the the Worlds, whether they were in August, as was the
case from God know when until 1994. In 1995, they were moved to
October. I can't recall when they were moved to the end of March,
probably 4-5 years ago. The weekly schedule in Adelaide was as follows
(Adelaide sits on a southern coast and is rimmed with small
mountains):

Monday - Breakfast, 100 km road ride, lunch, 2+ hour track workout,
dinner, weight lifting
Tuesday - Breakfast, 130 km road ride, lunch, 2+ hour track workout,
dinner
Wednesday - Breakfast, 160-180 km road ride, lunch, dinner, weight
lifting
Thursday - Recovery, 40 km easy
Friday - Same as Tuesday
Saturday - Breakfast, 180-200 km road ride, lunch, dinner, track race
Sunday - Same as Thursday

We were there for the entire month of November. (We had Knickman there
as coach, which was a really enjoyable thing.)

It was the only training camp that I had been to where there was very
little interest in going out on the town. I think we (as a group)
bought some beers a couple of times and sat on the edge of the beach
in the evening to drink them. Nobody went to any bars or did any
trolling for chicks.

Mind you, that's not the only route for success. McCarthy and Hamon
did not go, and VandeVelde broke his collarbone in a crash about week
after we got there and went back home.

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Sep 19, 10:48*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Sep 19, 12:18*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 19, 8:01*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 18, 2:45*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 18, 11:27*am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Sep 12, 12:16*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > > > track
> > > > > > cycling. The reason I mention this is that this is could have been the
> > > > > > best fit for him to make a comeback to competition. Apart from the
> > > > > > Madison gold and silver who were 43 and 39, there have been other
> > > > > > track riders who were very successful into their mid 40's, e.g. Danny
> > > > > > Clark. The less intense training regimen
>
> > > > > Dumbass,
>
> > > > > Less intense training regimen??
>
> > > > > Andy Coggan
>
> > > > Thanks, I meant time intensive or consuming.
>
> > > You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend to train,
> > > do you?
>
> > > Andy Coggan
>
> > From what I recalll of American law that is a leading question and can
> > only be asked on cross-examination. But, let's see, training methods
> > were influenced by the French win in the team pursuit at the 1996
> > Olympics in which two riders had just competed in the Tour de France.
> > As far as I know, that was the first time riders trained for the track
> > by riding the TdF then won a track event at the Olympics. A couple of
> > weeks later, Chris Boardman, who had been totally shelled in the Tour,
> > set unapproachable world records in the pursuit and for the hour.
> > Other very successful road riders who have won at the track: McGee,
> > O'Grady, etc. Currently, there is Mikhail Ignatiev who finished 3rd in
> > the Olympic Madison and shortly thereafter rode the Tour of Spain. So,
> > I assume that since 1996, very high volume training has been
> > considered beneficial for endurance track. Then there is the way
> > American endurance track cyclists train, which, seeing their results,
> > might more be an indication of how not to train. By the way, you're
> > probably too dense to realize that this last part is a troll, even
> > though it is true. And when I say "true", I mean I could submit it to
> > any refereed cycling magazine and it would get published (unless they
> > sent it to you and you would reject it, just because I was the author,
> > then I would have to file a challenge, then eventually sue, which
> > would lead to a trial in which you could finally ask me, on cross-
> > examination (after you had spent the intervening 4 years getting a law
> > degree): "You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend
> > to train, do you?" and I would respond by reading what I wrote above).
>
> Thus proving my point. Thank you, your honor, no further questions.
>
> Andy Coggan

Wow, I just woke up and realized that I wrote that message in my
sleep. Dream logic is weird, because apart from everything being
correct, your question would have been overruled in a real court.
Therefore, I have a virtual win in that judgment.

Seriously, to answer your question about endurance track riders, I do
know a couple of things:

1. Sprinters use them to tighten delicate bolts because endurance
riders puny arms can't generate more than 5 NM of torque.

2. Endurance riders claim that their endurance translates to the
bedroom but that assertion has remained unproved because they are all
too nerdy to actually find anyone to test this with.

3. Madison riders are gay (self-evident). Offhand, I can't think of
another Olympic sport where men hold hands.

4. Pursuit riders are very flexible, they can do negative splits
(useful with their Madison partner).

5. The most important aspect to becoming the best pursuitist in the
world is to have the first name "Bradley".

OK, I don't have time for more, gotta watch OJ.

-ilan

[bjw@mambo.ucolick.org]

On Sep 19, 11:03*am, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:

> 3. Madison riders are gay (self-evident). Offhand, I can't think of
> another Olympic sport where men hold hands.

Men's team race-walking.

Ben

[ilanpsi@gmail.com]

On Sep 19, 2:16*pm, Carl Sundquist <carl.sundqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 19, 12:18*pm, ilan...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > From what I recalll of American law that is a leading question and can
> > only be asked on cross-examination. But, let's see, training methods
> > were influenced by the French win in the team pursuit at the 1996
> > Olympics in which two riders had just competed in the Tour de France.
> > As far as I know, that was the first time riders trained for the track
> > by riding the TdF then won a track event at the Olympics. A couple of
> > weeks later, Chris Boardman, who had been totally shelled in the Tour,
> > set unapproachable world records in the pursuit and for the hour.
> > Other very successful road riders who have won at the track: McGee,
> > O'Grady, etc. Currently, there is Mikhail Ignatiev who finished 3rd in
> > the Olympic Madison and shortly thereafter rode the Tour of Spain. So,
> > I assume that since 1996, very high volume training has been
> > considered beneficial for endurance track. Then there is the way
> > American endurance track cyclists train, which, seeing their results,
> > might more be an indication of how not to train. By the way, you're
> > probably too dense to realize that this last part is a troll, even
> > though it is true. And when I say "true", I mean I could submit it to
> > any refereed cycling magazine and it would get published (unless they
> > sent it to you and you would reject it, just because I was the author,
> > then I would have to file a challenge, then eventually sue, which
> > would lead to a trial in which you could finally ask me, on cross-
> > examination (after you had spent the intervening 4 years getting a law
> > degree): "You don't know much about how endurance track cyclists tend
> > to train, do you?" and I would respond by reading what I wrote above).
> > This is the first message I've ever written with two levels of
> > parenthensization.
>
> > -ilan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Ilan, remember that the Olympice weren't open to pros until '96, so
> that's the first time that endurance riders could have ridden in teh
> Tour and Olympics in the same year.
>
> Previously, the Aussies had followed the old East German plan with
> great success, as the US endurance team did with immediate success in
> '94-95.
>
> Just as an example, in November '94, we spent a month in Adelaide,
> Australia training, which was unprecedented for organized team
> training after the the Worlds, whether they were in August, as was the
> case from God know when until 1994. In 1995, they were moved to
> October. I can't recall when they were moved to the end of March,
> probably 4-5 years ago. The weekly schedule in Adelaide was as follows
> (Adelaide sits on a southern coast and is rimmed with small
> mountains):
>
> Monday - Breakfast, 100 km road ride, lunch, 2+ hour track workout,
> dinner, weight lifting
> Tuesday - Breakfast, 130 km road ride, lunch, 2+ hour track workout,
> dinner
> Wednesday - Breakfast, 160-180 km road ride, lunch, dinner, weight
> lifting
> Thursday - Recovery, 40 km easy
> Friday - Same as Tuesday
> Saturday - Breakfast, 180-200 km road ride, lunch, dinner, track race
> Sunday - Same as Thursday
>
> We were there for the entire month of November. (We had Knickman there
> as coach, which was a really enjoyable thing.)
>
> It was the only training camp that I had been to where there was very
> little interest in going out on the town. I think we (as a group)
> bought some beers a couple of times and sat on the edge of the beach
> in the evening to drink them. Nobody went to any bars or did any
> trolling for chicks.
>
> Mind you, that's not the only route for success. McCarthy and Hamon
> did not go, and VandeVelde broke his collarbone in a crash about week
> after we got there and went back home.

Good point, I forgot about the non-Communist pro rules. Sounds like a
good training camp.

-ilan